Peggy Noe Stevens is an encyclopedia of great information about many bourbon brands. You may not know it, but she’s one of the biggest influencers behind many of the great distillery experiences while on the bourbon trail and outside of the state too. Peggy is a pioneer in driving diversity with her leadership behind the Bourbon Women organization and involvement with women-led panels. Peggy is an incredibly talented person that has shaped the industry from being in front of people leading them at bourbon tastings and crafting one of kind experiences behind the scenes.
- This week’s Above the Char with Fred Minnick talks about Wikipedia.
- What is an experiential expert?
- Who have you consulted for these experiences?
- What value do you bring to these experiences?
- What was it like working at Woodford Reserve?
- How do you elevate the experience?
- How do balance the history with modern day innovation?
- Explain the difference between someone coming up the ranks in the bourbon industry vs. someone just taking it.
- What was it like when you were named the first female master taster?
- Do you feel like the media is better today that back then?
- What about diversity in the whiskey industry?
- Was Lincoln Henderson your Mr. Miyagi?
- What are you doing today with this master taster role?
- Let’s discuss Bourbon Women.
- What was your inspiration for Bourbon Women?
- Tell us about the growth of Bourbon Women.
- How do you market the organization?
- What type of members do you have?
- What are visitors looking for in a distillery experience?
- How do you deal with a difficult person in the hospitality industry?
- How did you help pioneer the Bourbon Trail?
Did you actually consult him and say you should wear an ascot?
No, no, he he came. I want to make clear to all the audience that the Ascot was his idea. Are you suggesting I shouldn’t
move forward with it?
This is Episode 204. of bourbon pursuit. I’m one of your hosts Kenny Coleman and per usual we have to go through a little bit of news on June 22. peerless distilling is releasing their four year bourbon. If you caught the Live podcast with Corky Taylor then you may have heard about it, if not no worries as it will be released at a later date. We are very excited for Corky Caleb and the entire peerless team for having the will to hold back sales until this product reached four years old. When we get a chance to try it. We’re going to let you know what we think to Buffalo Trace to Hillary is now releasing their next installment in the old charter oak series called French oak. The old charter oak collection is designed to explore honor and celebrate the role of oak in making great whiskey. The oak tree is used in this brand vary from country of origin species, US date and even age there’s century barrels that are being used from Oak trees that are 100 203 hundred years old. For this newest release Buffalo Trace contained a small number of barrels from France in 2007 and filled them with Nashville number one. This is the same Nashville used for standard Buffalo Trace Eagle were amongst a few others. The old charter oak is now been bottled and will be available for retail in late June. Last week, we ventured out to Barton for another 1792 foolproof selection, that they started out a little bit different than most because it was raining and there were storms in the area. That meant we had to do our barrel selection inside at the tasting bar at the gift shop instead of the red house because they don’t allow people there during the chances of lightning. We made the best of it. And we had six barrels to choose from we narrowed it down to three. And that’s I guess fortunate that we ran out of samples there with inside the gift shop. But wouldn’t you know the skies parted and we got the sample our barrels inside the house to come away with a winner. After selecting it, we found out that it was barreled on to 29 which of course was a leap year. We were also joined by Father Matt, a fellow Patreon supporter and Catholic priests from northern Ohio, who blessed our bourbon for us to mean how often Can you say something like that happens, it was truly a memorable experience. If you want to join us on barrel pics, go ahead and sign up and be a part of our Patreon [email protected] slash bourbon pursuit. If you follow us on social media, you would have seen Ryan and I at will at this past Saturday. We’ve got big news to share. So you’re gonna have to wait to hear more about that one. Let’s just say we through 11 barrels and came away with two. That’s enough for the teasers for now. For today’s show, we have to just talk about Peggy because we love Peggy Noe Stevens, she’s an encyclopedia of great information about mini bourbon brands. She was featured back on episode 198 talking about would influence along with bourbon and food pairings with the state as the rave. But this time we get to hear her complete story. You may not know it, but she’s one of the biggest influencers behind many of the great distillery experiences that you get to see on the bourbon trail as well as outside of the state to Peggy is a major player when it comes to diversity in the bourbon world. She’s a pioneer because she played a big role behind the bourbon women organization that we’ve also featured on the show previously. Peggy is an incredibly talented person that has shaped the industry from being in front of people leading them bourbon tastings to crafting those one of a kind experiences behind the scenes. Now with that, let’s hear from our good friend Joe over a barrel burger. And then you’ve got Fred Minnick with above the char.
Hi, this is Joe Beatrice from Bell craft spirits. Every release is intentionally unique and can’t be duplicated. Once it’s gone. It’s gone. Find out more at barrel bourbon calm.
I’m Fred Minnick. And this is above the char. When I was a little boy. One day, a man came to our house. He wore a suit, nice leather shoes, had a suitcase. He took my father to the table and pulled out a suitcase and dropped five nice leather bound books. He flipped him open. The pages were silky smooth to the touch. And he pointed at me. And he said, Sir, your son can learn the world through Britannica encyclopedia is my father very interested in my education. But the encyclopedias I just sat there for pretty much my entire life. I don’t think I ever really looked Adam. Well, I might have pulled him out for a report here and there. But the encyclopedia man always struck me as like one of the greatest salesman in the world. And today, the encyclopedia is gone. So where do we go for information these days? Well, obviously, it’s the internet. But there’s one source in particular that seems to drive the conversation with most people. And that’s Wikipedia. Wikipedia is not a site that I’m actually particularly fond of, because it crowd sources information. And a lot of the information is wrong to include people winning awards, you see a lot of political efforts there to kind of try to change people’s Wikipedia pages. I have a Wikipedia page and you know, people go in there and tinker with that all the time. That’s great. That is what it is. So side note, I was the most important Ascot where once upon a time someone else took that spot. But the fact is, is Wikipedia is where we go for information today as a society. Now go on there and look for Jimmy Russell, Jim Rutledge, Elmer T. Lee, Jeff Barnett, you name them any kind of prominent person and the American whiskey scene, and you won’t find him. I don’t know if it’s the brand’s fault for not trying to make sure that their iconic people are on Wikipedia pages. Or if it’s simply that American whiskey hasn’t really crossed over into the pop culture of the internet yet. But I think we really should change that. So if you have the abilities, get on Wikipedia today and add a master distiller go add somebody who’s important to American whiskey. Because for a lot of people, if you’re not on Wikipedia, you don’t exist. And that’s this week’s above the char, hey, this idea came to me from a follower on Twitter, if you have an idea for above the char hit me up on Twitter or Instagram. That’s at Fred Minnick again. That’s at Fred Minnick. Until next week, cheers.
Welcome back to the episode of bourbon pursuit, the official podcast of bourbon, Kinney and Fred recording on site at one of our guests place. So we’re actually honored to be on site again together doing this. But today that I had the opportunity of meeting Peggy few times, probably probably probably a few years ago was the first time and then the last time which I don’t know if that’s going to go out and recording depending on how this release counter is going to go but had the opportunity to record her at the higher proof Expo doing some stuff with bourbon and food and chocolate pairings and tasting and stuff like that. And so that was kind of like my really first time really meeting her and kind of knowing some of the the depth of knowledge that that she really had to offer. But, Fred, you’ve got even a more personal connection to our guest today.
Yeah. So Peggy, and I go way back and if it wasn’t for her, hi would never have written the book whiskey women. And we’ve become friends. I would say, you know, I don’t have a sister. She’s the closest thing to a sister I have. And she’s the godmother to my son Julian. So, so we are very close. And you know, when we talk about when we talk about bourbon coming back, you know, this woman has done as much for bourbon as anybody. She basically was a founder of the Kentucky bourbon trail. I mean, it was essentially her idea. She It was her idea to create the launch pad of the Kentucky bourbon trail at the Frazier museum. And she founded a little organization called bourbon women. And oh, by the way, she was the first female master taster. worked with a lot of iconic brands and like Woodford Reserve so she’s very influential in this world of bourbon. And to me personally, just one of my best friends. Well, I think
I think we put up on a pedestal and padded that ego enough, we should probably go go ahead and introduce her. So today on the show, we have Peggy know Stevens, Peggy is the master taster and also an experiential expert. So Peggy, welcome to the show.
Thank you. I was thrilled to be on this, especially with you two guests
are you know, you you made it? All right, we’re 100 and whatever episodes and we finally got you, and you
waited this long for me know if that’s a compliment. I don’t know why.
There was all these rejections because you know, Kenny and Ryan were just, they weren’t, they weren’t ready for you know, right
away. Yeah, we had to me to build our build our confidence is kind
of how it works. Actually, it’s very true. They’re, they’re very sensitive to our various
crush your ego pretty quickly, there you
go. They’ll look at the text messages. And you’ll know exactly like how bad we can, we can really like hate ourselves. But anyway, I want you to first talk about what is an experiential expert, I have something I’m just going to guess that it has to do something with these these tasting pairing things that you do as well as a little bit.
I mean, that’s part of it. Experience ensure, and a lot of people don’t understand that word fully. But it’s about the experience, someone has been interactive, hands on, you know, engaging a consumer touching them emotionally. It’s all of those things. So for years and years in the beverage industry and managed visitor centers, and distillery operations for the consumer. And so through all of that, I learned how to really engage the consumer, whether it be on a tour or teaching or educating or food pairing. And so when I started my company 11 years ago, I decided that that’s where I would put a big part of my focus. So I work with kind of the big boy brands and I work with craft distilleries all over creating experiences for consumers on a tour path.
And so give us an idea of who you’ve you’ve actually consulted for so when somebody goes in here, they’re going to be like, Oh, I know that Peggy’s had something to do with this place. Right?
Well, recent, most recent, I guess is the Luxe row distillery in Bardstown if you visited there worked with the Luxe family. And the Gosh, I guess that project was almost a two year project very enjoyable. And then the American steel house for Jim Beam. That was my very first project actually, when I started my company, and then that led to the urban still house, which we helped design, and also their Global Innovation Center, which we helped design the interior and what a distributor or retail would experience, you know if they went on tour there, so that was one of them. peerless distillery comes to mind which I have a little peerless today for you. after this is over, or during whatever you want.
A quarter we’ll see what happens
a little bit on the victors project. And then of course, I go beyond the borders of Kentucky. So a couple Tennessee distilleries like old forge distillery, Thunderbird distillery, and have one up and coming, then it’s going to be announced, I think very shortly,
will awesome. So I guess, one of those things that if somebody is trying to open up a visitor experience, you know, it kind of seems that there’s, there’s almost like a formula nowadays, you know, you have a little bit of history, get a little bit of retail, but what do you kind of bring to this table that they couldn’t just go and say, well, I’ll just go visit four or five places write down what I can find, and then we’ll go build it ourselves, we need you to justify your job.
Well, I mean, technically, it is a process because I think that you have to design a visitor center and distilleries in phases, you know, from what is your story? You know, that’s where I try to keep people grounded. Where’s your authenticity? What do you want the consumer to care about? I call that the takeaway. You know, if you’ve ever gone on vacation, and you’ve had a great time, and you get back in your car, your airplane and you’re headed home, you say, Wow, that was just a great experience, because you always have a takeaway. And that’s what I try to get all of the visitor centers that I work with, to put their anchor in the ground and say, This is what we stand for. This Is Our Story, whether it be history related, or innovation related, or family related, you know, it just has to be true to them. You know, from that, we start to what I call three dimensional eyes it how do you bring that story to life, whether it be through exhibits, whether it be through the production process, or the engagement of the tour guide. And then once we design the exhibits, we work with architects and construction companies to help fabricate it. And after that point, you know, usually we’re writing the script. So we’ll help with script writing the product profile how we deliver a tasting
now, when you say script writing, this is like what when you say exactly like your word as much as I can.
That’s right. We we are pretty granular in our business that we even teach the tour guides, how to tell a story, how to train and customer service, how to deal with difficult people on a tour. So
how to deal with Kenny, you’re saying, Yeah, he one
that actually we teach how to throw out loud now? Yeah, but it’s really no more. It’s really soup to nuts. And that’s what makes a great experience when you thread all of the things together that I just mentioned, because that’s when you can say I had a surround sound experience. And so that’s what we try to capture with consumer
DNA. When you had said like, you know, anybody can just open like a visitor center. To me, that’s a little bit like, I’ve had a lot of people come to me and say, Oh, I can write a book on write a book. You know, that sort of thing. A lot of people think they can write a book. But then when they get down to writing a book, you know, they realize they can’t do it at visitor centers are actually very complicated AR and and the United Kingdom, go around to the scotch whiskey whiskey distilleries, and you’ll see how, how far ahead American whiskey visitor centers are from from those facilities. And actually, you kind of cut your teeth on probably what is considered one of the hallmarks of the bourbon trail and Woodford Reserve What was I did, what were those days like?
Well, I’ll tell you I look back at my Woodford days is probably one of the best times of my life.
We’re talking mid 90s.
Yeah, mid 90s and 1994 to be exact, and it was a two year renovation, give or take a few months. It was the brainchild truly allows Lee Brown, who I think was probably one of the most intelligent men that I’ve ever worked for, and worked with. And it was when the bourbon industry was having its resurgence that you know, we were seeing a difference in how we market and the consumer going back to kind of some of the retro cocktails. So it was perfect timing to create this vision for the distillery and so the beauty of it is the team that I worked with people like Kevin Curtis, Dave Sherrick, you probably heard those names. They were right alongside with me on the production level. And we were almost like a small entrepreneurial spirit ticket that Woodford Reserve to where it is the first year we opened. We were so thrilled we had 9000 people and we thought tremendous. And now it’s well over probably 150,000
like in probably two weeks now.
That’s right. But I was really fortunate. Because brown Forman gave me a really great pedigree. I was able to travel around with Woodford Reserve and see other experiences you just meant mentioned the scotch whiskey trail. I went to Ireland, Mexico, one of my fondest memories and one of the best still today for me, as far as an experience goes as a visitor centers choir vo literally we literally went out in the field with a machete and they taught you how to hack with the machete the A gob a plant in your in the dirt and it’s hot and sweaty and gritty. That’s an experience. You know. So those are some of the the small things that we learned, you know, to try to create Woodford and then I went on eventually to manage the jack daniels visitor experience and all the brand destinations,
I got an idea for you. So tell me you can bring it to bourbon now. Now you can say okay, we got to go out to the cornfield, you got to go get six Huff’s of corn and you got to come back and you’ve got to get all the kernels off, and I’m going to give you a pest immortal and you gotta get what happened. Yeah, you gotta chop all these up, we’re going to make your bourbon in one day. And that’s
experience. That’s it. I mean, that’s experiential. Because see, I think the consumer these days are so well educated. They want to be entertained, they’re dying to be entertained. And so all they want to do is participate with you. And I think that when the industry realizes that and they allow them to play a little bit at the distillery, it’s much more memorable,
too much free labor to its its tracks,
it will put all the consumers on the bottling line.
Oddly enough, they’d be like, I’d love to exactly. But another question that kind of goes, I do want to ask you one more while we’re on this topic, because you had talked about scripts earlier? Do you still? Are you trying to find people that are like, let’s get away from the whole? bourbon 51% corn? Like, is this the same thing? You kind of hear repetitive over and over again? Now? Do you come through and say like, it’s just part of like what it is you have to cater to the everyday person that might not know this? Or do you say like, well, maybe we can create an elevated experience that we can slide that in there. But let’s not focus on like the basics for a lot of these people?
Well, actually, it’s a little of all of that, I believe in tears of tours. And in other words, there’s something for everyone. There’s kind of your bourbon one on one tour, where you do learn some of the production methods, but then give the tourists an opportunity to go to that next level, maybe more of an intermediate tour where they dig a little deeper in the production process and the history and heritage. And then for the advanced lover, and true bourbon enthusiasts, you might have private classes or cocktail classes or so I really believe in those tears. It’s just a matter of convincing, you know, the distillery that one size doesn’t fit all, you know, that you really have to offer because our consumers today, I think it’s more demanding than ever, don’t you, Fred? I
do. And they also like to call things out more so than ever, and I certainly more avenues for them to do that. And you got Yelp, you know, you’ve got Google reviews, and then you certainly have the podcasts and the bloggers and that’s right. And one of the things that typically comes up from these, some of these smaller groups that come out, they kind of create, they create a story, and then they talk about it on on their tour. Let’s take Boone County, for example. They They told
us one of my clients actually,
yeah, that’s right. I knew that and they use that heritage. And you know, some people, they’re just like, just talk about the whiskey, we don’t care about the heritage, we don’t feel like it’s, you know, genuine to buy this brand or anything. So do you do you ever? How do you balance that, that effort to, you know, to bring out like a cool story. And, you know, staying with, you know, the contemporary desire to not create false back stories.
I agree. And and I think it’s what we all do or try to do is we have to respect our history, because even though it might not have been history of the whiskey, it was history of their culture, and their surrounding area. And that’s what Boone was, you know, they talk about their culture of their backyard. And then they tied in, you know, to the whiskey, and so, respecting the history, but then also have any appreciation for the modern day and innovation. You know, where are we going today? So I think it’s what I call a balance, kind of a juxtaposition between between past and present. And that’s what you have to bring together.
Okay, we see a lot of these brands that, you know, talk about, like my grand Pappy carried the yeast back on this toes from the Atlantic. And that’s not balanced. You know, that’s, that’s, that’s too far. And so like, if you’re, if you’re in the boardrooms, and you’re saying, guys, you can’t do that, then God bless you. That’s right. You know, because we, we’ve gotten tired of that over the years, and we still see it, but it’s not as prevalent as it was, I’d say 10 years ago.
And I think because of all the craft distilleries, you know that I work with and for, I try so hard to say it’s okay, if you’re sourcing whiskey, just say so, you know, tell them where you’re getting it, why you chose the barrel stock that you did, how long it’s going to be before your product comes out. Because I think authenticity is really important. And that’s another reason why I think the tourists don’t want to go to distillery after distillery and say, 51% corn, because everybody’s going to say the same thing. And it’s just dinner in a movie.
Let’s jump on that authenticity thing for sure. Get some of that. Some just hit me, Kenny. You know, we’re in this. We’re in this day and age where anybody can come in and say they’re an expert, a bourbon. You actually became a master taster at Brown Forman. Explain to us what the difference between someone coming up the ranks in the industry and earning that title and and then someone just taking it?
Sure. Well, I think that in our industry, what so many people don’t understand is that we didn’t have a formal definition of for example, if you wanted to be a CMO, yea, then you do all the credentials associated with that you take all the tests and you become a summer. Yeah. You know, in our industry, it’s kind of truly up to each and every distillery to decide titles of vocabulary credentials, and master distiller is very different than master taster. Master taster is very different than master blender. But each distillery is going to set the guidelines and training, you know, to advance an employee to become in that position. So again, I think I was in the right place at the right time. Lincoln Henderson was the master distiller at Woodford at the time. And I believe it was about 2001, where the general manager of Woodford Lincoln, they thought I had a really good palate, I kind of have a bit of a culinary background. So I think in food terms, and I think that helps so much and identifying and descriptive whiskey. So I had written the tour understood production, I have a bit of a science mind. So they asked me if I would formally trained with him to become a master taster at the time and my naivete. I think I didn’t realize that there were no women master tasters in the industry, if you can believe it. So of course I was eager, you know, to learn love doing tastings really respected Lincoln, in his knowledge and years of experience. So we would do you know, sensory training, we would you know, drill barrels and, you know, pulled from it, and he would teach me the different aspects of that, I had to do quite a quite a few things in the production area. And it’s kind of like the whiskey, you know, you’re not ready till the master distiller says you’re ready. And after a certain period of time, that’s when they gave me my certificate. You know, it was putting the newspaper and that’s when I first found out when it hit the newspaper, it hit the AP. Oh, wow. And went across. And it is big news, that a woman has become a master taster. In a male predominant, you know, predominant world. And the that’s when it hit me that this was really something more special than I ever dreamed than ever thought. And I’m happy to say now there’s many master tasters, Master distillers master blenders that are female, I just happened to be, I think, in the right place at the right time that that happened.
Share with us the
when that news broke the DJ who called you?
Well, when I mentioned AP, right, hit the AP, so 120 newspapers it hit. And of course, there was so much interest from radio stations, TV stations. And it was something I wasn’t, I don’t think I was quite mentally ready for in the fact that there was a particular radio station kind of a shock jock that wanted me to come and do a series or not a series but an interview rather. And they were kind of getting a kick out of the whole piece of the newspaper article that said, she doesn’t swallow. You know, she swirls and spits. And they kind of wanted to play on that a little bit. And I remember that, that’s when it hit me that I was going to be different. I was not going to go along, just get go along to get along. And I said no to the interview. Because I didn’t think that that was going to ever be my persona. And that’s not what I wanted to be known for. I wasn’t going to joke along with it. I wanted women to be taken seriously. And in a way like men would be, you know, and I don’t think there’d be too many radio stations that would ask a man to do that. So I said no to the interview. And, you know, it wasn’t very favorably received. But so Obama stood by my values on that.
Do you think we’re better today than we were? From a media perspective?
I think not really, from a media perspective you ask? So I don’t think so. But I guess I want to expand that not just to whiskey. I think on a media level, there are plenty of reality TV shows that, you know, try to get the worst of you the angle to make you not look great. I think there are plenty, you know, of Facebook video, you know, you see this all the time in social media that someone’s captured at a certain moment, YouTube video, all of those things. And so No, I don’t think media is better about it. But it goes beyond whiskey.
Yeah. What about the whiskey industry? Is it obviously we’ve seen growth of diversity. But you still, I still get the sense from from from women, that it’s not where they want it to be. In terms of the diversity,
right, I think we are on a great trajectory right now, I think there’s never been a better time for women to be in our industry. The amount of executives and vice presidents CMOS presidents of the different distillery or spirits companies, it’s really enlightening, and I’m so glad to see it. So there I think putting women in better positions has certainly improved. Look at the production side of things, we have more master distillers that are women. All of that’s wonderful. My question, I think, to the industry is really, once you’re out in the field, and when I say out in the field, as far as sales representatives go that are female, you know, marketing representatives who do kind of the day to day job of beating the streets and going to bars and restaurants and it’s more of how are they treated these days? You know, that’s that’s the question mark for me. But I know, you know, internally, it has definitely improved as far as positions go.
Yeah, I can kind of see that. I can kind of see what you’re saying. Because you’re still going in to even probably the more male dominated culture of liquor store owners and retailers and bars and stuff that yeah, these people have to go and they have to sell their product. I have to probably put up with some shit every once in a while to I’m sure that’s probably not far from the case of what you’re what you’re what you’re hinting at here. You know, one thing I kind of rewind a little bit about that you had talked about going up and becoming the master taster with inside of just Woodford or brown Forman in general what was
Woodford Reserve decision with Woodford Reserve specifically,
kind of talk about what those that individual process means are like how was how was Wes? Like, your your Miyagi, if you will? How does he mean like in Lincoln? You mean like it? Oh, sorry. Sorry. How was Lincoln? I’m sorry, I apologize. How was Lincoln kind of like your Miyagi here and your Daniel son, if you will. So the wax on wax off sort of scenario,
he got so caught up on that scenario, that Miyagi? I know, I forgot.
It was like, it’s like from The Karate Kid, you know, you gotta have you know, and you’re maybe maybe a Yoda, if you will. Yeah.
Well, again, Lincoln to me was was so refreshing every time he came to Woodford Reserve because he wanted to be as much a part of it as anybody who worked there. And he was the master distiller, of course, but you know, had to go back and forth to Louisville, he traveled around the world, you know, worked a lot in Japan, etc. And every time he came in, we would have great conversation, he was a foodie. So we always had that culinary tag that we appreciate a good food, good whiskey. And I have to say he was so well liked by the tour guides, and in the management, because he always had just as calm demeanor. And the reason why I tell you all that is because I think that really helped me when I was learning because he took the time to explain things, the very first time that we met formally to train, this was my first lesson, he had a box of toothpicks, and a glass of water. And then he had all these empty glasses, and I thought, oh, we’re just going to taste a lot. And he, as he was talking, he was breaking up the toothpicks and putting them in water. And it’s the most bizarre thing I’d ever seen. And I just didn’t understand it. And he goes, he goes, I’m gonna let this sit for a minute, okay. And I said, Sure, you know, go ahead, no problem. And then he came back to it about, you know, 10 minutes later, and he goes, smell this playing glass of water. I noticed it. And then he goes, nose, nose, the one with the the toothpicks in it, and I noticed and he goes, do you see the difference would can make? And it was just this? Was he trying to mess with
me as he means? Well,
I mean, it was just, it was just his way of teaching and Little things like holding a Glencairn glass, you know, in the small disk that goes on top to keep the aroma, and he would teach me how to move it back and forth, so that I could look, you know, like an expert, you know, tasting it and turn it off. And then putting it back on very quickly
reminds me of like somebody at the poker table, they’re just roll the chip in their in their hands or something. But
but exactly, that’s exactly where the basic so I guess what I’m saying is, I really honored the fact that he brought me to the basics. And then little by little, you know, we advanced her way into the distillery where I was drilling barrels and pulling samples and tasting. And so it was it was really a progression, I guess, is the best way to answer that question. And, again, it wasn’t ready till he said, she’s ready to conduct the tastings and send around and do tastings.
What are you still doing today? In regards of a master taster role? Are you actually helping with other distilleries in this sort of thing like trying to dial it in of what they should be releasing or what their barrel should be at?
I absolutely do several different levels for some spirits judge for the American distilling Institute. So every year, I go and taste product, you know, from craft distillers and rate it and sometimes identify if it’s, you know, has been in the barrel too long or still was dirty, or the grains were mold, you know, so we have to give a lot of feedback. And that’s kind of tricky.
That is, that is tricky. I gotta say that that job is that particular competition and that style of competition. God bless you don’t do that running.
But I also think before we get too far from there, I also want you to kind of explain when you just said, How can you tell if something if the if there’s something moldy in the still like, how can you How can you get that from the distillate, or I think everybody knows that it hasn’t been in the barrel long enough,
it’s a taste. For example, if this still isn’t clean, you know, really clean, I can taste kind of wet corn husk that tastes kind of moldy. To me, there’s a rubbery taste, you know, and that’s, that means something else. So it’s all in what you have memorized in your sensory, you know, as a good or not so great taste. And that helps guide me, any anybody who is interested in knowing how to taste, I try to break it down and say it’s really pretty easy. It’s about food memory, if you know food flavors, you know, like what burnt tastes like? Or what real great savory, juicy steak tastes like, you know, you can equate food flavors to whiskey tasting. And so the American distilling Institute, which we have tons of fun, you know, we have about 70 judges, I think now that come. So that’s one area and then for my clients, I do tasting profile. So if it’s a new product, I will actually dissect the flavors and come up with the vocabulary to describe it. And then teach the tour guides, you know how to deliver tasting. So that’s a job that I do. And then of course, doing food programs, food and bourbon programs, food and spirits programs. food pairings are kind of my specialty. And that’s probably what I enjoy the most. When I’m doing tastings.
Well, there’s one other thing that she applies for tastings. Joe went out, tell me she writes for bourbon plus, yeah, well,
how can I possibly get
she does tasting notes for the magazine? Yes,
I do tasting notes for the magazine and do ratings at times when I’m asked but I really have enjoyed that. Fred’s taken a very different way of approaching descriptions of food pairings and bourbon pairings. And so I’ve, I have really latched on to that, because that’s, that’s my joy. That’s what I really enjoy is describing flavors and whiskey.
So talk about a typical thing that when you are trying to do a food and a whiskey pairing, or food and bourbon pairing, I mean, is it like, okay, on your left, we’ve got shrimp and grits next goes well with bullet or we’ve got this and that, but kind of kind of just walk through what’s around on a plate here and how you would share?
Well, the first thing that I tried to have people do is just dissect the whiskey flavors in general. Because if you don’t know what you’re dealing with, there’s no way you could possibly decide on what food that it’s going to go with. And then I created something a long time ago called balance, counterbalance, and explosion. And the balance side is simply when you take the whiskey and you taste a particular flavor of the whiskey that’s, you know, pretty predominant. And then you match that flavor. Let’s say it’s Apple, you match that flavor to the food and so it let’s say it’s Apple, you know, so a slice of Apple, you taste apple in the bourbon. So it’s a balance nothing’s overshadowing anything. Then counterbalance is when you take a food flavor or descriptor from the whiskey and you try to do something completely opposite. Very similar to if you were drinking a Riesling wine and eating occasion pecan. You know the reasoning is so sugary sweet that it takes over the spice of the Cajun pecan kind of dousing it. You can do the same with bourbon, with really heavy caramel notes and vanilla notes. I could take an Asian dish and have my bourbon with Asian food because it’s actually going to that caramels going to wrap around that spice and it’s lovely. And then a explosion is when I want to really do surround sound tasting and I might take a great for example, you know I’ve got a bottle of peerless here I’m I take a great chocolate note out of peerless rye, and then I’ll have a really chocolatey, you know, truffle or majestic to go with it because it’s almost like too much of a good thing. You know, you’re trying to create a flavor that you can’t even believe it’s taken over your mouth. And that’s explosion.
Fred, did you know that you can pair bourbon with egg rolls? Because apparently you can.
The only thing I have now I’ve been able to successfully pair bourbon with has been like fishier styles of sushi. Like I compare bourbon really well with salmon but like, like, let’s say a spicy tuna roll. I’ve not been successful and fine. I’ve been able to pair a scotch with that, but not a spicy
scotch is so easy with seafood because it
really is. Yeah, but there’s not. When it when it comes to some of those more flashy or tunas. When you hear those spices, they’re hard to pair to.
I mean, most of our listeners, they would say well of course you want to go at Jefferson’s ocean and because apparently it’s supposed to bring in this briny, salty taste to it what would what would be your response to that?
Me? Well, I or or Yeah, I think Jefferson’s ocean is
sometimes it has brightness to it. Sometimes it doesn’t. I don’t always get it.
Well, I remember I was very skeptical. The first time I heard you know valve and putting it on the sea, all of this and I thought you know what, I’m going to taste this thing. And surprisingly, salt is not a descriptor that I use ever when I’m doing whiskey profiles. And I will tell you, I really do get a little bit of that sea salt taste
as I did in the later batches, I it’s been inconsistent for me.
So what I try to do if I’m if I’m pairing with Jefferson’s is not to overdo the salt. You know not to have a real savory dish to pair it with because I think it can overtake
so go ahead. I you know, we’re I don’t want to get too caught up in all the tasting side of things because we really want to talk about you know, bourbon women.
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I really want to talk about you know, bourbon women you you left. You left Woodford Reserve 90s or 2000.
I left I left the company
in 2008 and started my company in 2008. Okay. And, you know, your company was a consulting company you’ve you’ve been a you know, personal consultant. Yes. image consultant. By the way, She’s the reason why I have a beard.
I told you I’ve been trying I’ve been trying with
Fred This is this when he was baby face when he had the goatee and you’re like, you gotta you gotta grow it out some more. Or is it actually
it was it started with the goatee was the other It started with a goatee. And I said fill it in and fill it in. But yeah, that’s one of I am an Image and Etiquette expert. And, and believe it or not, that’s come in very handy because I work in the hospitality industry. And so it’s about the look and feel of your employees and professionals. So Fred’s
con wrote a book on it.
I wrote a book called professional presence. And I teach on that still, you know, too many organizations and corporations, but
when she’s with bourbon groups, she just throws it all out the window.
Do I Do I dress down? No, I’m just so last thing is I
usually wear a coat and tie to see me today.
I did not Yeah, but I also usually wouldn’t know which one of the nine spoons I’m supposed to use that are in front of me sometimes at a nice dinner as well.
Well, and you know, it’s funny that you say that because that’s where the bourbon industry is just been great because it’s so approachable. And even though I’m an etiquette expert, and I had a woman at bourbon and beyond from California came up and she goes, Peggy, you’re the Emily post of bourbon. And I kind of got a kick out of that, because I wasn’t trying to take that she was no, you’re really teaching us. You know how to do things and use things. But one thing lesson I’ve learned from all these master distillers who I really admire is to make it approachable, you know, teaching people what they can do and how to enjoy it, but not making it intimidating for them to enjoy it. Because we don’t want to make it untouchable.
to listen, and he says his way or the highway.
So the inspiration for bourbon women? Yes. What was that?
Well, I think bourbon women, for me personally, my inspiration was when I was still working for Woodford, because I would travel around the world. And when I would conduct tastings, nine times out of 10 predominantly male, which was fine that there’d always be like a little trickle of women in the back. And they would only come up to me, after the tasting was over to ask questions, you know, or ask what I do for a living or, or expand a little bit more on my career. And I always found that very odd that they wouldn’t raise their hand when a lot of the men would be flooding me with questions, you know, during the seminar. And then I attended a women’s weekend and Kiawah Island. And again, this is back in the 90s, early 2000s. And it was a women’s weekend not about whiskey. It was just a women’s weekend where the hotel was doing different things, excursions etc, shopping, the normal thing, and they asked me to come in and do a bourbon tasting. And when I got there said how many women It was probably 100 women in this room. How many women enjoy bourbon? No one raised their hand. Nobody, no. Time is over. But then I said, Well, how many of you drink margaritas? They all raise their hand? Oh, yeah. Now we’re talking Now we’re talking. And I said, I’m going to teach you something now that I think you’ll appreciate. You know, when you have a shot of tequila in front of you, you’re probably less likely to drink that than you are to have a margarita. I said so we’re going to start slow and I’m gonna teach you how to taste bourbon, and what cocktails you can put in bourbon. And then maybe you’ll decide, you know, the Bourbons okay for you. And by the end of the night we were singing New York, New York and doing the cancan. Yeah. Yeah, it was it was wildly successful. The women had son, they loved it. And so I think that was part of my inspiration. Also, another event that I did, when I was at Woodford, I have a picture of it actually with Lincoln. We did a women’s group, cigar and shopping night. And women came from all over Kentucky to attended Lincoln gave the tasting. We had a cigar aficionado there, you know, showing you how to smoke a cigar and then we shopped and it was wildly successful. So in marketing, because I was in marketing for so long, we’d be waving the flag saying there are all kinds of women out there that want to be part of our franchise, but marketing dollars or marketing dollars, and the demographic skewed always to the mail. And it was just really never took off. So when I started my own company, and there’s a long way of explaining it, but when I started my own company, I said I’m gonna start my own damn thing. And so with bourbon women, I did focus groups across Kentucky, and I grabbed some really great friends and then in over Manhattan’s, we said, you know, let’s, let’s test the market. Let’s test these women. Let’s see if they’d be enthusiastic about creating a platform a conversation. So we did the focus groups, I got all my research together, and I went to go see the one man in this industry who would tell me the truth. And that was Bill Samuels, and I sat down with Bill Samuels, and I said, Bill, I have an idea. And he was always great about listening to me, he truly was, even though I worked for Woodford for years, I was in my own company. He didn’t have time, you know, to talk to people like me. But I sat and I showed him all the things that we did with focus groups, and he was like, You know what, I think you’ve got something here. He was the one I used the word earlier conversation. He was the one that said, Peggy, you’re starting a conversation. That’s what you gotta do, you’re gonna start a conversation with these women. So that gave me all the power I needed to know that it must be something there. So we did an inaugural event at the governor’s mansion. Fred was in attendance and you should tell that story actually.
Well, when when we gave the speech and in the catalysts for wisdom women. Okay, so
yeah. So when she, when she had came up with this, this idea to do bourbon women, she one of the things that she would talk about was like women were some of the early distillers and they were always a part of the industry. And kinda you know, how it is when, you know, kind of my calling card, especially at that time, was to find, you know, kind of call people out a little bit. And I was looking into that. It’s like, when I saw that when she told me that all right, I’d saw it. I said, That’s not true. You know that, you know, no one’s ever written about this. There’s never been any, any ads. Like I was like, surely if there’s this is true, then brands would be all over you, we’d have all kinds of brands named after women. And I started looking at she was right. And not only was he right, I found women that the brands didn’t even know about. And so I said, not only is this awesome, I have a book here. And so that was kind of the catalyst for what became whiskey women. And really at that book more than anything propelled my career to where I am now. But it all We joking, I
just want to say I haven’t made a dime off that book. I don’t have commission I don’t have I don’t have title. I don’t have anything. movie rights. I don’t have anything maybe
maybe Oscar Oh, like playing the NBA or something.
Oscars Fred son, by the way, it’s my godmother. It’s probably gonna be five, six.
Yeah. Likely, let’s see can dribble Really?
Yeah. Well, the anomaly.
Beauty of that whole story, though, is that Fred was unlocking something that he couldn’t believe no one had. And so I was unlocking something that I knew needed to be unlocked. Yeah.
And no, that was in that moment, that that’s like, you know, you look back on life. And you know, there’s probably a dozen moments where you’re like, that will always stand out. And that was one of them. And to be honest with you, if you did not run with that, you know, I because now what Berber women was the first but now they’re probably we 30 women centric whiskey groups. Sure.
And it started with you.
Thank you. I appreciate that. We’re really proud of the fact we were the first female consumer group to talk to the industry. And now we’re in six cities formally. We have thousands of women across the United States that attend we’ve done over 200 events, if you can believe. And then we have our annual what we call sip podium, si p symposium 200. Women came in from 23 states this year to Kentucky to go on excursions, learn about whiskey, bourbon, the culture and heritage that surrounds our great state. And it’s been I don’t know how else to say it. It’s more than networking. It’s more than educating, which is what we stand about. But it’s empowering. And these women come together from all over they’ve never met each other and the camaraderie and that’s why I always say, bourbon brings us together. Yeah, it’s a universal welcome. And bourbon women’s not a demographic. We’re a psychographic. You know, it’s these women are love soft adventure. They’re curious. They have bravado, confidence, a lot of them are really just professional women who want to have a little bit of an escape, you know, from the normal business life. It’s been probably I would say one of the best things I’ve ever done in my career.
One of the things to Kenny that she’s that they’re doing is that they are getting data from their, from their members and what they released some data recently about where they like to go well, on the bourbon trail, right. And that was stunning to me. He was like,
Yeah, what do you think about that? I was
shocked. It was it will. So it was Maker’s Mark and Buffalo Trace, they were kind of neck and neck. Those are the two that I always recommend. But then after that was like, who wasn’t on there that shocked me like we didn’t see us. That’s a Weller. You know, we do didn’t really see any of the craft brands. Woodford had a small pie, small piece of the pie. It was it was very stunning to me, like what was appealing to bourbon women. From a tourist perspective? Well,
I’m glad you brought that up. Because one of the things we do do is pride ourselves on some of our research. And what we’re trying to do is kind of debunk the myth to the industry. This is part of our mission that you have to pink, a whiskey for a woman to like it. And so what we found universally, whenever we do tastings with the women, or whenever we’re at an event, and we’re doing surveys or blind tastings, they undoubtedly choose the spicier, more robust, and higher proof bourbon is a
memory serves. Booker’s almost always wins these things. Yes,
yes. And also, heaven Hill did one more the Elijah Craig, barrel strength, oneness. So that’s part that’s really that’s information that helps the industry because again, you don’t have to dumb it down for women. They like it like you like it.
So as long as Jim Beam and Heaven, Hell are listening, you figured out a new target for these brands, you know,
our cohorts coming
along? We’re seeing more,
or any our co host Ryan, you know, he like he’s not here, but he he secretly likes flavored whiskey. So I don’t think he would want the brands to listen to that part.
The other question I kind of wanted to roll with this as well is, you know, we’ve talked to groups about how they start. bourbon societies and stuff like that talk about what the the growth was here. And was it? Was it small growth at first, did you plateau? In the past six months? Have you seen a hockey stick? Kind of what did this look for
bourbon women? Yes, I would say we shot off like a rocket when we first began. And then just like when you’re selling whiskey, it’s easy to get into distribution. But then you need pull through or retention, you know, you need that second order. And because we were in Kentucky, I mean, it shot up. But until we went outside the borders of Kentucky we plateaued a little bit. And then once Indianapolis came on, you know, Tennessee, DC, Chicago, in these other cities wanted to be part of this. And that was the unexpected. I never designed bourbon women to be something that we make $1 off of. I never designed bourbon women to really be a national organization. It was it really wasn’t there for me at that time. The women spoke to us, the women demanded it. And we listened. And we we stepped up and we said, okay, we’re going beyond the borders of Kentucky. And that’s when we really took off.
How are you marketing it nowadays?
Well, nowadays, of course, largely through the internet, largely through our website, invitations. We have branch ambassadors in each of those cities that I mentioned that are creating events for women and excursions that they can go on. So that’s a big piece of it
are using like meetup com or something.
We we do event bright we do. You know, it might be what we call meet needs, which are just real simple meet at a bar and have some cocktails together just to enjoy camaraderie. Or it might be a really formal event. You know,
you said camaraderie, they’re looking to make new friends in a new city. So So kind of what is that? What is that profile nationality is
the the freshest information I have is just us coming off a symposium in August. And it really took me back because the women I were meeting, they’d been to the last five symposiums and they keep coming back and coming back. But this time, for example, we had a woman that brought her five nieces, you know, all female nieces that were 21. And over. And they made an excursion of it. You know, there was an aunt, or I’m sorry, a mother, who brought her her mother and grandmother to this event. We have a mother that it brings the daughter who just turned 21 we have women’s weekends, where a bunch of girlfriends are getting together, and they want to go away. And we’re the tickets. So we’re seeing all kinds single married, Grandma, you know, young 21, who just got her her, you know, driver’s licenses says she can drink now. So all of those things, all of those things, it’s a combination.
So it was there. Is there one that kind of fits more the bill than the other? Or is it just
say that, but we’re all across the board. We are all across the board in age, we’re all across the board. geographically. We’re all across the board from mother, grandmother daughter. And, and I love it. I think that’s that to me, said, this is how women come together.
Are you trying to do something that’s that’s unique as well just for just for an all female audience versus something that would just be for a general bourbon meetup?
Well, what’s so interesting to me is more and more we’re seeing and more men come to our events, because they think we do very buttoned up events and a very deep in the education, which is part of what we do, and we’re proud of. So we’re seeing more and more men, so men can come to it. But as far as the camaraderie of the women who are coming, it’s the it’s what they want it they get as much as they want, how they want it.
So I kind of want also rewind a little bit to some of the had some questions that were lined up from some of our listeners about distillery experiences and stuff like that some things that that they kind of wanted to know. Sure. And in one of them was kind of thinking about, what do you really feel that visitors are looking to get away from an experience there? Like you mentioned earlier, that they want to come away with some some vivid memory? Like, what, what else? Is there something that is? Maybe it’s physical, maybe it is intangible? What else do you think is missing there?
Well, I you know, I’ve been in hospitality for 30 years. And when you really boil down hospitality, it all goes back to human needs. You know, everyone wants to be heard or listen to or feel appreciated or feel special. Those are human needs. And so to your question, you know, I think aside from saying I had a great experience, when they meet a tour guide that treated them a little bit differently. That’s a great memory,
or they Eddie Johnson’s the best ready
Johnson is magic. I mean, he’s magic. That’s what he does. So well, I don’t care what level of person he meets, where they’re from, what they look like Freddy Johnson’s gonna make you feel like you’re the only person in the world?
Do you think he could probably just go out and start consulting?
I don’t think you can. I don’t think he can teach what he has.
It’s really an art. Yeah, it really is as much as we do customer service training at different distilleries, and it’s an art. And I can almost tell the people who have it or don’t after doing it this long, but to me, it’s about human need, and making you feel like you’re the only person in the room. And that’s really what so many of our master distillers have done over there like Jim or Jimmy Russell, to me, I call him the gentleman distiller. He was always in Fred and I just did bourbon and beyond, you’re on stage with us for the Jimmy Russell tribute. And that’s what I quoted was, he had that magic about him, that there’d be 1000 people in the room. But he was only about you at that moment. So when you ask that question, what’s the consumer looking for? What’s the tourists looking for? They’re looking for a special moment where they were recognized, or they had fun with you and being part of somebody’s memory, their entire memory of all the vacations they’ve gone on? You know, that’s a real honor. So that’s my philosophy of hospitality is to never forget your part as you’re part of a family’s memory for the rest of their life.
I think that’s accurate for probably 99.9% of them. But then there’s the crowd the old bourbon geeks,
there are. They’re out there. What are you? How do you? How do you prepare your staffs for, for the guy who knows everything and won’t hear it otherwise?
Well, the only way that you can deal with what I call a difficult person, and I see the sometimes in the tastings, I do, I’m sure you do. And you do. There’s always one in the crowd.
There, they’re always old ladies, for me, like I always have an old lady, lady bourbon has to be from Kentucky.
Well, first of all, my advice always to defuse the situation. Because usually when you have a difficult person, they love being in the spotlight. And they want to draw attention to themselves. So you have to kind of diffuse that person, like pull them aside and say, oh, let’s have this conversation over here and get them away from the crowd. You know, or Oh, great question. Do you mind if when we’re on break, you know, we we asked, we all answer that in just a little bit. Because when you defuse it and pull it away and kind of steal the thunder, it definitely helps. definitely helps.
One thing I don’t think we did touch on that we need to before we wrap it up is about the the kind of how you pioneered the the bourbon trail as well. Oh, okay. Right. Yes, we definitely need to kind of talk about that be what the original process was the idea? Who did you say something to I heard it first, it was just a brochure like,
Oh, it was definitely just a brochure. But what’s really a funny story, and it was more out of I think, trying to do our job, then it was great marketing, creative minds. There were two women in the industry. That one worked at Maker’s Mark door, our, let’s see, Don anally. And then Doris Calhoun worked at Jim Beam. And we were all visitors, center directors, I was at Woodford, and we were friends because and that’s a great thing about our industry to even though we were competitors, we were also friends, we really enjoyed each other’s company, we would travel to tourism shows, and we would drink each other’s bourbon, you know, and taste each other’s bourbon, and we just had fun together. But we were all in the same boat, we had to bring people to the visitor center. And so we start talking about it. And we said, you know, people are going to see you and they’re going to see you and they’re going to see me wonder if we did some kind of, you know, cross marketing, that these visitors could come to all of our facility and we mark it all together, you know, in a way that it’s kind of a road trip. So that being said, So Daniel, who I don’t know if you know that name or not Katie, he was the Eric Gregory of Katie a at the time. And we took it to him and said, Hey, why don’t we bring all the distilleries together and put it in a brochure and market it so that, you know people have a choice to go everywhere. And maybe we’d save some money on marketing, and maybe we would get more traffic. And so over a million stops later, as reported, this past year, a million over a million stops on the on the bourbon trail. And I’m very, very proud of that. And Eric Gregory, in my opinion, when he came on board really brought the bourbon trail to life, and put it in a marketing, highlight and importance and priority. So that our infrastructure that all of our distilleries are investing in would pay off. And it’s worked. And it’s worked. So yeah, so I can’t take credit, there was me that it was a small team of women.
How cool is that to say like, you were part of the team that spearheaded the bourbon trail, what is now probably the the most successful tourist
strategy in Kentucky.
Oh, easily. I mean, it’s it goes hand in hand with with wine country. Yeah.
And again, I will say, I have not gotten a commission, or anything. we debated back to something’s happening here. We’ll get you a plaque. Oh, no, thanks, Kevin. I’m
getting something out of these visitor experiences.
People should have taken a penny from every transaction at every distillery and then you would be retired forever. It was, you know,
really, at the end of the day, when I think of the industry and how great it’s been to me and the legacy that I want to leave. You know, these are the types of stories that I hope people will say, you know, and I hope I’m not finished. I think there’s more to come. I got more
in me where we’re starting to see the next wave of Peggy know, Stevens, and that’s the writer. She’s she wrote me some time ago and said, I’m going to be your best rider before it’s all over. And competitive. I said, I said, All right. And her stories have been fantastic. Well, fantastic.
I appreciate that. I do have one more question about this bourbon trail map. How many were there on there when the first one was released? I believe seven.
And what do we have now? 23. Plus,
was Buffalo Trace on
he was called ancient age. Also agent at Buffalo Trace was on there. They were called ancient age
of a split and wild part me the Katie a Buffalo Trace.
I don’t remember the date. But it was seven in the reason why that was top of mine. I just gave a presentation to bourbon nomics business first. And it was kind of a walk down memory lane for me because they were asking about the trends that we’re seeing today in our industry. So I had to kind of roll it back to the bourbon trail. And I had a picture of one of the original brochures and it was seven. Oh, awesome.
That’s really cool to look back and think of Oh, yeah, seven that was that was nice, though.
Nice back then. Yeah. And it just to see the infrastructure and investment that we’ve created is really spectacular was
a city dweller on that list. Now on the first level, you know, let’s let’s who so as wild turkey,
let me count when I was a Maker’s Mark, Jim Beam. Woodford Who am I forgetting ancient age wild turkey. And who am I forgetting or roses? Maybe? Yeah, four roses.
That’s interesting. What six?
Yeah, no, I’m trying to think of who I was on there.
Because heaven Hill didn’t have a visitor.
That we have to go back and look, but I know it was seven.
Maybe the well wouldn’t have been the boss and plan for
that. Anyway. I’m pulled the brochure. I’ll pull up I’ll pull the original order. Like so long ago. First person to comment gets a
question gets a free Ascot from bread.
I got a new one on today. I noticed that actually, I do. Black polka dot
i can tell it’s quality from where I’m sitting. Yeah,
it says this is probably from the 50s. And actually the way
really, you know,
did you did you actually consult him and say you should pie somewhere in an ascot?
No, no, he he came I want to make clear to all the audience that the Ascot was his idea. Are you suggesting
board with it?
We have our signatures. We all have our signature, we all have our signature.
I didn’t see that.
I love when I can, you know, surprise him. Right, Mr. Journalist?
Well, Peggy, I want to say thank you so much for coming on. today. This was fun. It was a good conversation. I’m sure that as Fred said there’s going to be more stories to tell down the road so hopefully we get to capture those at some point as well. So if somebody does want to get in contact with you, so I know you recently just started really getting on Instagram so how can we will know more about you website
so sure. Well, I have a new website coming out in December but for now, where they can reach me at p Stevens at Peggy know Stevens com that’s my email or Peggy know Stevens for the website.
Awesome. And your Instagram handle is p Stevens. P Stevens. There you go find our Instagram find me and as well as thread on Instagram, Facebook and Twitter as well. And if you do like what you hear, make sure you support the show on Patreon pa te r eo in comm slash bourbon pursuit and now that you’ve had the opportunity to listen to two of the writers of bourbon plus, go ahead and get yourself a subscription out there because it comes right to your door. It’s an easy way to sit back and have some has some throne time. I guess reading if you want to look at it that way is a very bad another bad image for
the associations. Really just coming to me today, you know.
But also, if you have any other show suggestions, things you’d like to hear, send us an email team at bourbon pursuit calm. With that I want to say thank you again, everybody for joining us, and we’ll see everybody next week.
Thank you. Cheers.