202 – What if there was a Legal Secondary Market? with Nate Shue

What if there was a legalized secondary market? Some may argue there is with new vintage laws being introduced around the country, but then there is the massive flood of online marketplaces that don’t have any regulation whatsoever. It’s a touchy subject because anyone that is really into bourbon, has seemed to find their way into these corners of the web. And lets be honest, most of us have had to do some sort of buy, sell, or trade to get bottles that we desire. It’s the nature of the game and this show looks at the premise of if you could build your own legal secondary market, what would it look like? We are joined by bourbon enthusiast Nate Shue, a Patreon supporter, on this topic.

Show Notes:


Got a two and a half year old. So there’s limited things to be done.

How about you not be a terror this weekend? Hey everyone,

Kenny here and this is episode 202. of bourbon pursuit. And as usual, we have a little bit of news to go through that bourbon pursuit we try to find new and interesting subjects to talk about in one podcast we thought of doing a while ago was thing what is the environmental impact of urban? And we haven’t really found that right guest and that right subject matter because I don’t know if that’s really what you all find engaging your interesting, so we haven’t really done it. However, I find a little bit interesting. And there was a news report that came out this past week. And this was a partnership that was done by the Katie and bear in 2018. And it was the it’s the first time report to actually measure the Kentucky bourbon industries use of energy water in emissions data. For roses heaven Hill, Rosie Tyler, Wild Turkey, Bacardi beans, Suntory Brown, Forman and Diaz, you all submitted data, and this ensures that it represents about 98% of the Katie a membership by production volume. Overall Kentucky distilleries use of energy and water consistently declined from 2013 to 2017. And still rested below the global distilleries averages in 2017. The average water use ratio for Kentucky distilleries decreased 41% from 2013 to 2017. This represents a total water use avoidance of more than 6 million key leaders. Now I don’t know what a kilo leader is, I don’t live in the metric system. So to put it in layman’s terms, it’s it’s enough to fill an Olympic sized swimming pool nearly 2400 times. Now one example this is heaven Hill updated its water source at Bernheim distillery. The company reduced its water usage by 33%. It plays to still condenses onto a cooling tower loop. The distiller now recycles within its operations instead of sourcing new water. This saves around 330,000 gallons of water per day, you can read the entire report in our show notes. stocks have been on the news lately, and maybe it’s because of the trade over the China but stocks in general tech usually gets to seem to get the most eyeballs and folks had just seemed to look past the US whiskey stocks. Now if you would have had the foresight years ago, instead of putting money just in the bottles, you would have put it into stocks like brown Forman and GPI. at nearly 30 times at this year’s estimated earnings. These two stocks are trading at premiums to my more diversified rivals such as the NGO in GPI alone, Rose 98 rose to $98 last year from $6 and 2014. However, barons com is telling people kind of pump the brakes and hold on and don’t really give the money grab yet, because there could be a bubble that’s going to burst. And that happened with celebrity vodka not too long ago. Now that you have people like Bob Dylan endorsing a whiskey investors may wonder if we find ourselves backstroking in the bourbon industry, because there’s now billions of dollars that have been added to adding distillery capacity and more barrels of booze, aging and all these warehouses. You can read the full article in our show notes that has quotes from our previous show guests such as Joe Beatrice of barrell bourbon, as well as Chuck Cowdery. At today’s episode looks at a cultural topic, what if there was a legalized secondary market? Some may argue that we already have that there’s new vintage laws that are being introduced around the country. But then you see the massive flood of online marketplaces that don’t have any regulation whatsoever. It’s a touchy subject, because anyone that’s really into bourbon kind of seem to find their way into these corners of the web. And let’s be honest, most of us has had to do some sort of buy, sell or trade to get the bottles that we desire. It’s the nature of the game. And this show looks at the premise. If you could build your own legal secondary market, what would it look like? At this time, we also want to say thank you to Nate shoe who’s on our podcast today, and one of our Patreon supporters for joining us with this topic. Now with that, we’re going to hear from our good friend Joe over a barrel bourbon. And then you’ve got Fred Minnick with above the jar.

Joe from barrell craft spirits here, barrell craft spirits is more than just bourbon. We blend rye whiskey rum in our signature in a barrel project. Find out more at barrellbourbon.com.

I’m Fred Minnick. And this is above the char, what sells a bottle of whiskey. If you’re listening to this podcast, you know data spent your fair share of money in the liquor store buying those sweet precious bottles of bourbon rye, scotch, Canadian whiskey, Irish whiskey, maybe a little South African whiskey. So you are not necessarily the person the distillers are trying to target. When they are asking the question, how do we sell to the French consumer? You see, you and I were more of what they would consider the base or the geeks, people who are going to buy whiskey, no matter how they market it. So they’re always trying to find a way to appeal to that 25 year old freshly out of college MBA working on Wall Street, or in Boise, Idaho at a bank, they’re always trying to figure out a way to target that new consumer. And one of the ways that they think they’ve been able to do this is by saying they are the first at doing something. If you take a look at a lot of the whiskey marketing, you’ll see people say they’re the first to use this grain first to use this barrel. First to have a distiller with long hair and flip flops make the whiskey Yeah, that’s a joke, by the way. But you know, they’re always so caught up and saying they’re the first as if that new consumer will care. And the fact is, most people don’t care if you are the first to do something in American whiskey. Well, we do care about does it taste good? What’s the price on it? And can I find a bottle? Now that new consumer they may be interested in like doesn’t mix well with coke? Is it good? And cocktails? Does it? Do I like a neat? What is bourbon can be bourbon be made outside of Kentucky? Now there’s all kinds of questions that these people go through. But the whiskey distillers are going down this path of trying to own the fact that they are first at something. And I just don’t think it matters, unless it’s really important. Like you were the first to make whiskey on the moon. You know what I would like to know that. But if you’re the first to use a certain type of grain from Guatemala, you know, maybe mention that. But don’t make that your entire marketing platform. Because if you have to talk about how you were the first it’s something that means you’re most likely trying to compensate for the fact that your whiskies not up to snuff. And that’s this week’s above the char. Hey, if you have an idea for above the char hit me up on Twitter or Instagram. That’s at Fred Minnick. Again. That’s at Fred minute. Until next week, cheers.

Welcome back to another episode of bourbon pursuit. Ryan and Kenny here in the basement once again, having our gorgeous backdrop. But today’s topic is going to be something that’s interesting, I think, to everybody in general, because if you are even entering the bourbon world, which for me, I found that I still find it really crazy that you still have all these one on one discussions on like the Facebook, bourbon or groups. And it’s like, if you just started drinking wild turkey last week, you’re already going into Facebook forums and trying to figure out your way to learn more about it. Like, I mean, take me back to your first when you started. Ryan, were you actually sitting there trying to like, find more information on the internet after you had your first drink of bourbon?

No, no, definitely not. After Well, it was a long time ago. And I was inundated and surrounded by it but it was mostly just go into a store talking to friends about it. You know, I think Facebook and the internet is connected everyone and information is so close to your fingertips. That just makes it easier for someone to find out about things how things work and or get, you know, deeply involved in something very fast. And so it kind of takes you down the rabbit hole really quick with how much information there is out there and

different markets and whatnot. Yeah, I mean, I remember just my my entry into bourbon as well. And, you know, today, a lot of us we go and we look after, you know, how can we find the victors 10s? How do we find a ruling Lou Weller’s? How do we find all these ones that are really kind of hard to get your hands on. It took me after I mean, I started I started like drinking bourbon as my regular drink. You know, when I was 21 in college, and then from there, it just didn’t stop. But for people that are on the hunt, even to find Pappy Van Winkle, it took me almost four to five years out of college to even know that these even existed like I didn’t even I didn’t go try hunting for stuff I didn’t. I wasn’t looking on the top top shelves or racks. I was looking at my price bracket.

Yeah, like Elijah Craig and Maker’s Mark were premium. For me. It was like those were like going on a limb and spending a you’re like oh man $30 a bottle man. That’s like that’s breaking the bank was like it now that’s like, that’s just like an everyday drinker.

Yeah, of course, the old sorry. Oh, force was my go to and then every once in a while that splurge on four roses, small batch. And that was like my, that’s like,

that was my my, that’s like a graduation or something big celebration. You’re like, oh, somebody’s got Let’s bring out the four roses, or, you know, Elijah Craig 17 or something not? Not the way it is now. You know?

Yeah. And because at that point, people eventually figure out, oh, they go to this forum, I want to learn more. And then they’re like, Oh, what’s this whole secondary thing. And then all of a sudden, people are like, Oh, I can make money off this. Oh, I didn’t know that. Then winkles were really hard to find. I know, whatever was really hard to find. Now I go and find it. And I try to flip it or try to do whatever. And that’s all I’m going to do in oil. It’s it’s created this elusive secondary market that everybody at least I’m pretty sure that if you listen, this podcast, it’s not because you’re drinking wild turkey last week, it’s because you know, the culture and you know exactly what’s what’s actually happening out there. And that is really the topic of today. And this idea was brought to us by none other than Nate shoe. And Nate is a huge bourbon enthusiast. He’s also a Patreon supporter of ours. So Nate, welcome to the show.

Thanks for having me, guys.

Yeah, so I kind of I want to gauge you know, your level here, like, when did you start getting into bourbon? And when did that bug really, really bite you hard?

Well, it kinda is in my blood. My grand, I came from basically cocktail culture. So my grandparents had, you know, nightly Bourbons. They’ve been drinking we call bourbon the family drink. So it was literally no matter how all the members of my extended family, sooner or later, you come around to bourbon, whether you start you know, like in college, or you come later on, you know, in your 30s or 40s, it becomes your drink. So, always been around it that my, my family weren’t like, you know, fancy bourbon drinkers. They were, you know, my step grandfather was a heaven Hill guy. My, my grandparents were bourbon Supreme, the old one in Illinois, the one before they before the rocket stuff that they have now. You know, it’s a little tassel on and everything that was there drink you know, it’s unlikely one and and it just after a while, it does affect your what way I mean, like you guys, man, I was in college. It wasn’t doing anything fancy when I and I’m, you know, I hate to say this, but my roommate went to UT. So he brought back the love of makers after college, and so makers was my fancy with our fancy bourbon that we would have when they weren’t going to grab a handle a jack daniels for everyone. I just wanted to give shots of whiskey. Which, you know, to our mind now, it’s like shots of whiskey. Talking about

a sin. Yeah,

it is a sin. So So yeah, for the longest time, it was and I still have an absolute love of makers. I’m sure you guys have like that cheaper lower end bourbon that like is just you have a special place in your heart for you go out to a bar and you’re not sure what you want to get. You’re like, I give me that whatever that is. It’s definitely makers for me, but a couple years ago, and honestly, I can’t remember what triggered it. You know, it was like you take that first step into Hey, maybe this stuff can get better. I made the time I was at spent many years trying to learn about wines, you know, which is its own rat hole, very expensive rat hole to go down into. And started going to get getting back on the just a regular daily bourbon drinking train. And I’m trying to think back of what basically that first little bridge bottle is what was that that kind of cut you over to wait a minute when we got here.

And honestly can’t remember.

I can’t remember. So

there was something that just I just added morning it is you just think what the hell was Megan, suppose you go back through your old receipts and figure out what that one was. But basically, once you kind of get like, it became an association of like, I know how, after drinking so much wine, and she were like, you know, there’s a difference in wines in that, you know, a red wine tastes like this, but a higher end wine tastes can taste amazing. Why can’t it be the same way with whiskey? So you kind of go down that track of like, and then you can figure out what do I like, you know, and so it was advantageous, then, you know, and this is goes back, you know, 1015 years, that the brands don’t have the popularity and that cachet and where we’re at with social media where everything is in your face, as far as get the get the fancy stuff, get the limited releases, it was just kind of like what do I like to drink became an easy, easy kind of transition into what we have now. Which is, let’s just say it’s a little bit crazy.

What do you think was probably the the pushing point that that started making everything a little bit crazy, you know, I I always look at it and think of I measured things by what I would call the Pappy Van Winkle index. And and that’s sort of really what kind of started a whole craze of secondary market and some other things that are hard to get. I mean, what did you see is that sort of catalyst.

That’s a pretty good, good one there. I mean, when it would start to show up on TV shows, and kind of the buzz This is again, probably pre social media environment winner. And now so maybe roll back to like 2010 2011 2012,

I remember seeing an episode of

Oh, shoot the Norland show on HBO don’t recall the name of it this moment. But the famous chef that did a cameo on it, David Chang, I think is his name. He brings out a bottle of Pappy 15 at the end of the show, just to kind of bring everyone together, it was kind of like, hey, it was a total like a name drop thing. But it was like kind of in your face of like, hey, the fancy, you know, famous folks drink it you should do. So there’s almost like a top down push of to make it a luxury brand, which for folks that have been buying it and drinking it for so many years. It’s kind of like, What are you talking about? This is the stuff that I’m getting up every day, which probably makes the luxury brands consider at least these days luxury brands of bourbon to be strange for people. Other words, a really fine piece of fashion like a close, you know, there wasn’t a time that you could you know, by Ferragamo shoes for like, you know, five bucks, right? That’s just a fact of life. What we have here is a little bit strange, especially, I mean, you start getting at the dusty room, and you know, stuff that your grandfather bought for five bucks. And all of a sudden, we’re, you know, paying 200, 300 500 bucks for it. It’s like, what didn’t make much sense. today. I mean, even you know, going back to stuff, you know, five years ago, you know, stuff has gone up 300 400, 500%, it’s that disconnect, I think, which drives a lot of the frustration in the bourbon community specifically, you know what I mean, it’s just, it’s when when something was added at a price level, where you were the it’s part of the price theory of price takers and price makers, back then the bourbon community with a price makers, they you know, were like 20 bucks a 5030 bucks a fit. That’s just what it is, I am the We Are the buying community, we have kind of spoken. Now the situation is reversed. Now their prices takers, because the price makers are the folks with the inventory and the supply. And they can the community at large can be can want to be a price maker all they want. But no one’s going to sell it to him for that it’s just not going to happen. And so that kind of reversal is very jarring for people, and it makes me definitely has an understandable element of frustration, which is what you guys probably see every day.

Well, and nothing. bourbon is the like, perfect product. Because for someone to sell because it’s rare. scarcity. People love scarcity. They love the awareness of it, you have things like single barrels where everything’s unique. And so it kind of like, can dry and like you said, What does these they’re not making any more. So it’s more rare, more valuable, more collectible to people. And so it’s

it just

appreciate over time, because they’re not making the like they used to and then it’s every barrel is unique. So it’s like a unique product, and like the perfect product to sell because of that.

Absolutely. And so the you know, really we were trying to gauge on how do we start talking about what a legal secondary market would look like? If if we could actually imagine one. But let’s go ahead and think about the current, the current aspect of the secondary market. And what’s that? What I

ever heard of it doesn’t exist?

Actually, it’s probably close to the fourth, fifth, sixth, seventh and eighth year after raise hands all these times. But let’s talk about what what are the issues that are there today? You know, other than a it being completely legal. But what are the other issues that we see

with with the current state of state of the union of the secondary market? I guess you could say?

Well, I mean, you really, it’s it kind of does begin and with the fact that like Fred said on Tuesday, alcohol is a controlled substance, there’s really, for as much as possible market forces can change that, they’ll always be an element of control, that’s got to go to somebody, it cannot be an unfettered open market, it just can’t that that’s that’s, you know, you got to start from that point, nothing’s ever going to change that nothing should be quite honest, it deserves to be a controlled substance. But what the next step that you want to take there is do you want to have a market like by literal definition of market, which is the free flowing information of buying and selling, the way to ensure the product you’re buying is what you’re at what you’re buying, and who you’re selling it to transport get transparency, the things that you would see in the financial market, I think I’ve been reading up again, I liked I think it was Nick from breaking bourbon had a pretty detailed vision about what he wants a secondary market could be. But I think what it lacked was an element of truly a market because in his his vision was you could bottles could go around bottles could go in. And but as a consumer you can, only thing you could take out was bottles. But I think and I think that in itself does not make a market. Because the market involves it’s not just products changing, and its products and cash basically changing hands

on his idea was that your bottles are your currency.

Right. And in that case, that doesn’t mean if we were in a barter economy, sure, or pre or at least in that sub economy as a part of coming, it’d be great. But the reality is, of course, that’s not going to that doesn’t cut the muster. That’s not going to create a true market there, I think. But the secondary

market is kind of a barter system, really, because I mean, it’s gone. Yeah. Because you know, you have bottles that you’re selling for, but to get the funds to buy the bottles that you want. And so it’s like, it’s all this made up money kind of moving around, exchanging hands just to get like, because I have access to certain bottles, somebody has access to certain that I want. And so it’s just like, all this moving around trading between people, even though there’s money involved, it’s like, it’s staying within the system, it seems like it’s not, you know, going outside of it

is real element of what the market would need, I think. And again, one of some of the best analogs you can see to this is the financial world is where the market makers, the the end of the end and the role of the person that’s going to bring the buyers and the sellers together. And you has to use more more financial nomenclature, who has the order book in front of them, who knows what the offers are coming in, and what the offers in for both sides. Because right now, like we talked about price takers, price makers, it’s a one way street, people with a with the inventory, or just like this, the price we’re done. I don’t know if you guys have been on wine searcher. But I say have very fascinating graphs about offer prices. And so I looked through, you know, the typical ones, happy be tackling the rest, over a five year period. And it’s fascinating as the prices don’t change, there’s the the movement is just not there, you’d think it would appear to be logical that wow, okay, I can’t unload as a store, for example, unload this, Pappy 24 1800 bucks, well, maybe I’m kind of old for 14 or 1500, it’s, you know, saying as they probably got a retailer at least close to retail, it’s, they’re still making a good deal of money. It just sits there. And it’ll sit there for a long time. And you think if and because they have know, them, since they are their own market or making their own market, they don’t care about that no one else’s wants to buy or no one’s a buyer at that price will just sit there, but a market maker. And given a commission of course, in this you increase the cost of price bottles in general is motivated to make the sale, you know, I’m saying and they’re in the what we have now is we really don’t, we had the sides are SO FAR Part of that there’s no one they’re motivated to make the sale, you get a market maker, he’s motivated to make the sale. So and that what you know, ideally, of course, that could kind of bring the prices, the the the supply and demand more to balance, maybe get a little more movement in prices. And to actually, you know, so we so give, that would give people a little more opportunity, because of the fair and open market. If people have, you know, again, have the ability to buy it. It sounds, you know, obviously closely like an auction system, like we have at the International round, like with scotch and the rest, but you look at that you look at those prices, and the same thing there. They just the prices Don’t move, they sit up, they sit there, and it’s, you know, looking at it, you almost say to yourself Is this some kind of ball, setting these things, because they it’s just, it’s fascinating to me, that for a luxury good life, this, which it doesn’t really have a clear set value, you know what I mean, for that, for reselling these bottles, they’ve it’s like it’s come into being and it’s becomes an expectation for the folks that are selling it. And that become that expectation is then put goes across all of the channels to sell these bottles where the auctions personal, you know, the the, the more gray markets, or the retailers who pretty much at this point are just as much a member of the secondary market as individuals.

So you brought up a good point, I kind of want to talk about this to you know, you talked about wine searcher, there’s also bought bottle Blue Bottle blue book that’s out there who and you know, this is these are this is publicly accessible. It’s not like some of the secondary markets where you get to know somebody that knows somebody to make sure that you can get in. It’s not really that hard. It’s just kind of like oh, find it click on this

actually refer a friend. Yeah,

no, it’s it’s funny,

like the worst kept secret in history. And it’s not hard to find it however stuff like wine searching bottle Blue Book, like it’s, it’s publicly accessible information. Do you think this actually hurts? Or does it help a secondary market or even just the general market?

Well, value should, there should be some debate about values, they shouldn’t just be hidden, you know, think basically behind the curtain. And, you know, at least, to use the auction example, like the auctioneer has the magic value behind him, and he sets it and that’s just it. I mean, there should be like, you should be able to kind of challenge from a community perspective, why this bottle is worth why it is valued at this much. Right? Because the other problem we have one of the one of the other problems in this particular market is it’s so thin the supply is I mean, we’re talking, you know, hundreds of 10s hundreds in some cases. Well, what’s up? What’s up barrel? Willa, like, what 168 180? I mean, they’re just, it’s ridiculous. The amount of the the thinness of these markets. So how do you value that? You know, where are these values coming up with? I mean,

yeah, that’s a good question.

I was just gonna say, because, typically, it’s like, Where did the values begin? Because typically, it’s like, double, you know, what you paid for it. And then but you have some, like, the band wrinkles, which are like 343 to four x, you know, times and it’s like, well, how did those become, because they’re not, they’re, like, less rare than some of these other bottles.

And it and it stays, you know, it like jumps people this, this, the three to four or five, x comes up? And I would expect it for it to keep going up? In other words, if it’s if it immediately jumps up to a value of that level, why does it stop? You know, it would not, it’s doesn’t seem logical that it would just stop. Because like, for example, Happy 23 sits at what 2600 or so, and secondary, and it just like gets up there and just stays, you know, I mean, if they’re, if, if there’s price it if there’s people willing to pay that much for that bottle at that price? I mean, you’re already so far over what is considered MSRP? Why isn’t the price even higher? You know, you’re likely to find someone they’re going to get, why does these whatever the price movement, I mean, it was to make many, many interesting economic papers. Trying to find the price there this I’ve read a few just in general and like luxury goods, and doesn’t really address this because bourbon such a very unique industry in the product. But it just having the transparency and market makers, apart from the legality, which is a whole nother trick bag of you know, who who’s going to solve that one? Right? I mean, just to make it, you know, it. I mean, you talked about on Tuesday, I mean, just from the shipping angle of it. That’s a thorny mess. And the, the 21st amendment gives you one sentence about what the states can do, which basically is everything. Otherwise, you don’t have a lot of clarity there. And that’s why you have the series of decisions, the try to tease out what that precisely means. And if you heard some of the dissenting opinions, and some of those decisions that especially Brian from Supreme Court was talking about on Tuesday, it’s a fascinating read, because it doesn’t cut across ideological or party lines.

Yeah, yeah. And another thing about pricing, kind of a few examples that amazed me some like cured oak or tornado, you know, it was $75 bottle with it with two or three years, it was like, only two to 300 bucks, you know, for those. And then like, all of a sudden, like IPOs six, and then now they’re not, you know, and it’s like, well, how does that how does that happen? You know, like, and then like bottles, you know, they immediately come out, and they’re say double or triple x, but then somebody opens ones and drinks one the reviews bad. So it drops down, but then somebody says they like it, then it goes back up. And then it’s, you know,

it’s kind of crazy. There’s the community aspect, I mean, the community has grown a lot larger and more recent year. And once you know, you have a cured oak or a tornado that was only around for a little bit, and then it it sort of it follows a probably a pricing structure that you see of dusty bourbon. And that is pretty equivalent, because you’re never going to have it again. And if you want it, you’re going to have to pay for it. And all of a sudden, people are like, Oh, this is great. And there is only what a couple thousand bottles right ever released. You know, you you think of just old granddad from the 1980s, there’s probably there’s probably hundreds of thousands that are released. So it’s it’s more scarcity and stuff like that. Sure. It’s a name. That’s but yeah, it is definitely good investment. That’s I think that’s part of the reason why people look at this. And you can’t, you can’t blame them for not looking at this as an investment because it actually is an investment opportunity for for many people, even people that have large collections that have a lot of bottles open, they still invest in by rare things like just rare old knickers, they’ll buy rare, very old Fitzgerald’s and they’ll sit on him because they know, in 567 years, it’s going to be worth a little bit more. And they’re going to make what they had on their investment.

Was it the the economists we had from U of L on they said like, they did a research that from 2015. Like now, like if you invested in Berlin, you’ve seen annual gains of 200%, like, on average, and you’re like, holy cow. Like, you can’t get that anywhere.

Yeah, in any investment. It doesn’t help that university researchers are helping fuel this.

Right. Right. Well, CNBC would talk about scotch a few times a year, about the investment and as a category of things to invest in that were, you know, not your typical securities. And it would always be the same way like, yep, it’s a great investment along with, with rare wines, if stored properly, and the rest. So yes, go ahead. Okay.

Well, the other thing I kinda want to talk about was, I talked about earlier is the community aspect. And one, the one thing that’s, that’s very different with this, you know, we had talked about since it is a controlled substance that needs to be regulated. However, the community is a very, very good job of regulating this market. And if this were to kind of move into a, a legal ish terms, and we can kind of talk about what legal avenues there are here in a second is kind of the next segment. But what happens if you remove that community aspect where you are, you’re doing this based on trust, and there is that that sort of connection, because we’re all part of the forums, we can read, there’s, out of the years, there’s only been a handful of times where somebody has actually gotten burned. And so what happens if you remove that that community aspect from it?

Well, if you have the same level of trust in the individuals that are holding the alcohol, assessing the alcohol, then you’d have something similar. It’s a matter of my, you know, trust migration from the guides is that you know, and worked with with some other organization, whatever would happen to be kind of like, it seems to work well, for especially at the UK, the auction international auctions, as people have seemed to have a healthy amount of respect for them, like they’re not going to, you know, sell you counterfeits, and they take at least a little bit of, it seems to be a lot of effort to make sure that they’re not accepting counterfeits to sell. Either. It’s, it’s one of the be one of the difficulties and bringing a grey market or black market, if you want to use a more harsh term into the light is, is the taking that trust, because obviously, that that kind of market Trust is everything, you have nothing else, there’s no one else to no one else is settling, or setting rules, or anything like that you’re trusting the person you’re doing business with. So you know, could you be doing this, you could, in theory, be conducting the same business minus you know, a percentage going to whatever is the official are actually more than a few percentages, because you have state taxes, of course, to get in to get their cut, which in the end will mollify a good deal of states, they have their money, they’ll have a lot of the complaints will kind of go away. You know,

it all always boils down to money, but with

and I’m sure you’re seeing the same kind of issues. with marijuana, as you know, as the state’s legalize it, there becomes a more formal market, you’re moving for, again, from a black market to a to a more open market, where you’re dealing with different people versus the trust that obviously folks that deal with illicit substances would do with each other. And certainly, in a case of a class, it was to or what I mean, much more seriously control substance versus vice alcohol, where trust is. So that’s a beautiful, difficult, that would be a problem. Like if you were if there would be a formal step forward to do that, you know, through all 50 states is how do you migrate the trust that individuals that are buying and selling and trading bottles now can do a certainly with it, costing them more?

Right? Wouldn’t you think what happened if you remove that, that sort of community aspect? You know,

I told my like family and my wife about this secondary more, and they’re like, Are you insane? Like you’re, you’re trusting these random people on the internet to sell you are bad, and you’re shipping home and hoping and then like, you’re taking all the risk shipping and buy, I think that I’m amazed at how well it is regulated within the community, and now would be, I just don’t know, there would be as much thoughtfulness from a regulatory as there is now currently with the Barbara community, because it is like a circle of trust and like this little aspect of in, we’re not going to let any one mess with it, you know, and so

I don’t know, I

kind of like the way it is, but Well, I can tell you this if you if you buy a bottle from like Christie’s or something like that, an auction house and it gets lost in shipment, they might refund your money, they’re probably not going to replace it with a nice equivalent bottle, but they’re, they’re sure shit not going to send you like a bunch of like free samples, because, you know,

they feel bad about it, right? We lost in

the mail. That’s one thing that, you know, you can’t you’re not going to have that that sort of personal connection out of it either.

Yeah, and because we’re all in this, nobody wants to get screwed. And, you know, and when things happen, you feel bad, and you empathize with that person. And so you’re going to do what’s right to make them you know, feel good about the whole because you are then we are all the same, you know, same bread, same people that are passionate about this. And so I feel like we would do a much better job of taking care of each other versus you know, buying from liquor stores or whatever they probably policy Yeah, your refund or whatever. But

yeah, I don’t know, I think the community so much better.

So let’s talk about what are some of those legal routes today?

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Yeah, that really actually is I do have I do have that one. It’s very, it’s brought tears brought tears to my mother’s eyes, because that was the same kind of Baba, she used to pour for my grandmother. Nice. So it was it was a memory thing. So it was really nice, but it’s decent number, but I was like, All right.

So there are a few different ways that you can sort of regulate some of these things. And you know, in Kentucky, they passed the the vintage spirits law, which allows you to actually take vintage spirits. However, there’s still a lot of gray areas and trying to figure out what actually is classified as vintage per se. But, you know, that’s, that is one way that is a legal way to be able to sell some of your bottles, but still the unresolved, like the issues, like patties, for instance, if some still in distribution or on shelves, you’re not allowed to

take part in that vintage law or whatever. So it’s still kind of leave some holes or things left to be desired.

Yeah, I was about to say, and you know, Nate, you’re, you’re in, you’re in the DC market. Correct. So that is the, I don’t wanna say the Wild West. But

it’s like Wilder, it’s pretty

liberal, and it’s like

or lost, its wilder than anybody else. Let’s put it that way. And, and so the the rules that are in DC, for anybody that’s kind of unaware about what you can do there. If you’re a store, you can buy things on the open market, you can buy them from anybody else, and you can resell them in your stores. That’s pretty, it’s pretty willy nilly. And how that works. Do you think it would be in for you, Nate, would it be advantageous for other states to kind of have the these laws that allow people to sell through illegal routes, such as what DC does? Or does that hurt?

It would be useful, but good luck getting it through a control state like Virginia. I mean, it given an avenue to you know, they would have I think liquor buyers in DC kind of understand it’s the Wild West, you know, if they see like, wow, this is open sale to Canada on the shelf at you know, my favorite liquor store just appeared there, right? obviously very old. Like, they know, it wasn’t just they know the drill like Yep, somebody sold to them, they’re going to sell it back to me like kind of understand that’s the way it is. And this is a normal thing, but and you would trust them the historic and talk about trust to make sure that it’s not you know, someone didn’t take it dump it out, put Jim Beam minute versus you do it to the control state. This much more regulated now they have to make sure just like Kentucky the stuff like Kentucky, it’s like, well, how do I know that what you’re selling me this allegedly dusty Fitzgerald is actually a dusty opens zero. You know, I mean, they as a because they’re they as in the control state, they have all the control, and they have all the responsibility. You know, and just just imagine the one time that they resell a bottle with something poisonous in it, you know, not that someone’s like literally trying to poison but something got dumped it who knows how it could happen. It would only take one time, like, you know, front of a talk on Tuesday and only takes one really bad event. And in that kind of leads into a secondary market. Like what if we’ve talked we’ve seen the stories of folks getting, you know, getting hammered with fake counterfeit bottles, but what if it’s something that’s worse, you know, and then the and then the investigators follow that trail back to that community. It’s over. I mean, it would take one time and it’s over. So the control states are would take a very much more strict like, Oh, I gotta figure this stuff out. So you got to give me everything under the sun. You got to give me receipts, you gotta be verified that before they would take it do it versus, you know, DC being very lacks in terms of Asher, it looks like it looks like it’s what it is. Go ahead and just resell it. buyer beware.

Yeah. And I guess, you know, one thing, I was kind of thinking of analogy, while you were talking about this, you know, buying and then reselling, it’s, you know, you think of even Justin’s House of bourbon and a lot of people that are doing this that they’re essentially bourbon pawn shops.

Yeah, that’s all they

really are. And it’s, it’s a way for them to kind of make their margins on on whatever that is they need to be able to buy, but you do bring up a really good point. How in you’ve got to be able to trust the store, in regards of Yeah, is this is this actually a very, very old Fitzgerald. I mean, I can just tell you, from my own personal experience, even being here in Louisville, that there is a store that I bought some stuff from and and then he was like, Hey, I got these other things in a customer sold them to me. And they were bottles of very, very old Fitzgerald. And, you know, he, he didn’t really know exactly what the market price was, it’s really hard for me to even figure it out for myself. But I also didn’t have as much trust in the store to actually know if they are genuine or counterfeit, because they can’t prove provenance. They don’t know exactly how many times has traded hands. So do you see some some things like that, like as big causes per concern with with this type of law as well.

Certainly on a state by state basis, I mean, I think to an extent like the internet, the Auction House is the kind of figured out enough. And they understand how their reputation. Really, the reputation as an auction house is relies on the reputation that the items that they set for auction are what they say they are, because they understand that like, again, it only takes one or two bad ones, and then you get a bad reputation, and then even even the big auction houses can can really suffer for it. So it’s just I know, it’s Kentucky was trying to do a good thing there. But I’m not quite sure they thought it all the way through imitation is just I mean from this from the post that that sip and corn is put on, there’s a lot of interesting stuff there and trying to figure it out. But you know, working that into some of these other state, I mean, it all just goes back to the damn 21st amendment. It’s states, you got all the control, you get to figure out everything. And what we have is just a mess. And there’s everything that we would think, you know, you’d be able to want to accomplish to do and it’s just, you know, is it a question if we’re not trying to solve the problem of? I mean, we have that the safety aspect is really big, but it’s just like, I have a good, I want to sell it. Do you want to buy it? Let’s make this happen. You know, give us the avenue to do that. You know, and it applies to, it applies to everything I you know, applies to all I get like the guy in the show talked about, you know, an AR 15.

He could sell it to his

cell to his buddy with no consequences. Nothing. But he could do the same thing with a bottle of jack daniels. Absolutely. It’s a tough one. It’s everything that we want to talk about everything we propose how we’re going to get around 50 states 50 laws,

guns and liquor.

Yeah, it goes back to. And I think you brought up a good point Kenny about like, you know, having, Justin, I think if the word I have is legalized, you’d have to have a few dedicated store owners who would embrace this and make them like kind of the, because if you just go to everyday liquor stores, and people are buying and selling, like they’re not going to give it as but they’re not going to put as much thought into it as someone like Justin is because he comes from our community, he knows what to look for. You’re not gonna have a dedicated person at each store to like, analyze and determine if these bottles are fake or real, or what are they they’re not going to know. And so I can tell you, the average liquor barn employee probably won’t know

exactly like that. Exactly. So I think the way it could work is having something like Justin’s house and bourbon in each state or market or whatever to be that kind of go to place for the this kind of sales and the commerce side for total wine and liquor buying it by doesn’t make sense for them to even enter that arena, because there’s just, it’s probably too much time and that they don’t, they don’t need to worry about. But the other thing I kind of want to talk about is, you know, we brought up auction houses a few times Nate has, and yeah, there’s there’s a lot of them out there. You’ve got Christie’s there’s actually quite a bit that happen. Most of them happen overseas, over in Europe. And yeah, you can you can ship your bottle to them, they’ll inspect it, they’ll give you a percentage of whatever it sells at auction. And this is a this is a legal route. And you can do this. There’s there’s nothing that stopping you from doing I think there’s one maybe at a New York as well. I can’t recall or there’s one in California is too but

Southern beats does some too.

Yeah. And and I guess the question to you, Nate, is this helpful from a from a legal standpoint? Or does this actually is this is this bad? Maybe from a community standpoint? Because Could this be an increase in awareness, which also means increase in price for these type of items?

Well, it’s very likely will be an increase in price for the things that you want to buy. That’s been that the the nature of an auction, the advantage there is, obviously the tradition of auctions goes back a long, long, long, long time. So from a commerce perspective, regulators perspective, they understand that like, Oh, you want to have these things that goes to the things you want to sell goes to an auction house, and then they consider that, you know, a legal entity to move the product and make sure that it can it’s not going to hands on people that it shouldn’t go into. But yeah, it would definitely they auction based on their commission, commissions on the strike price, they’re going to want higher prices, not that they’re going to boost it artificially, but the nature of the auction, and the nature of the demand right now would mean that that wouldn’t, that might solve the access problem, like you have the x, you have the ability to sell your ability to buy, but I don’t think it would do anything for pricing, at least on the on the limited releases.

You don’t think so? I kind of see it a little bit different, I think I think of, you know,

will say we’ll say 2018 bottle of George t stag is will say, today’s market at 350, 400, somewhere around there. You put this on a more visible market, something that is freely accessible to anybody to get to and it’s it’s publicize. It’s got Facebook ads, it’s got everything that is, you know, you can find through when you’re scrolling through your phone and social media. And I think I think the price increases by another 15 20% because of of that right now. And somebody just commented that’s a Skinner’s auction is getting 23% buyers premium now. So there’s there’s definitely, I think, I think that would, I don’t know, if it hurts values, it just increases them. For people that are trying to obtain it through those legal means as well,

well, it’s just another hand and they they want their cuts. So it’s going to naturally just increase because the fifth and sixth, fifth and sixth year and so

any kind of market you put in, it’s going to be a

cut. It’s amazing if you could count from the day is distilled this bourbon to like how many hands is exchanged to the secondary market, there’s literally like from barrel brokers to distillers, to the bottling to distributors, retail stores to the it’s amazing how many hands and middlemen there are this end. Mm hmm.

So the other thing that I kind of want to push over to you, Nate is, you know, what will say that it’s Pandora’s box, you can choose however this is going to work. If you were to have a legal secondary market. What would that what would that look like in your mind?

We talked a lot about a lot of the principles of it, how

I think for my personal opinion that the the core of it is to create a liquid market for both the products you’re selling, and then the cash coming out. So that’s important having a bonafide a market maker that would probably have to double as a Registered Agent to take the set bottles. So it’d be kind of a, they would probably have to have two hats. That was that is ready and willing to make a sale. Like their job is to not let that is to nudge the sellers to not sit at ridiculously high prices based on valuations just kind of pulling out of their behind. Like, no, they want, they’re motivated to make a sale. And they like real estate agents, you know, like,

Yeah, exactly. Everything.

Right? I mean, it’s like, and so I think gradually, that would bring a much more reasonable level more reasonable of of pricing for those bottles. And so you have the transparent you the transparency of the market, you have a motivated market maker, or set of market makers to make the sale. And the ability not only to have the individuals, you know, put bottles into sell and or facilitate trading, which it should absolutely should be a part of the set market as well. But the ability to actually get cash minus the appropriate taxes and fees, which are just going to have to be a part of it. In terms of, you know, then you have how do you solve the state? What How do you deal with the state’s problem, apart from giving them their cut, based on the state year in a row is this I don’t think this could be like a, you know, this market only exist in New York, you send your stuff to New York and all the transactions takes place take place in the state of New York, I don’t think that would necessarily work. So I think, Well, perhaps not a federal solution, at least one that addresses all of the state’s concerns. And I think having that again, that Registered Agent, who’s also the market maker can do their best and do what they do to ensure that the folks don’t get the wrong folks don’t get those bottles, no keeps the market legitimate and keeps it legal.

I think Ryan brought up a pretty funny way to put this in regards of real estate, it could honestly be treated as such like that, you know, you’ve got your you’ve got your agents, you’ve got your your mortgage brokers, you’ve got all that these kind of people, but not necessarily that that sort of analogous to this, but you would have essentially an online listing market where people have valuations and you can buy at those particular prices. I don’t know what the you know, the Zillow for bottle is Zillow, basically. But I don’t I don’t know like what the analogy is to there to say you default on your loan. And now you have to put your house up for auction. I don’t know what the analogy is there that something would actually go to auction, let’s say you just felt like, okay, we’ll just see what the market will bear on something like this?

Well, I think like Nate said, it just kind of helps if you do have brokers and agents that kind of helps keep prices in line and what the true value is, versus just some abstract kind of number that we’re pulling out, you know, in these markets currently.

And it’s an interesting, I finished a book recently, it’s kind of interesting analog here it was, it’s all about the concert ticketing business. So the history of pricing and why we’re paying such a normal prices that we have today. What it talks about a lot about the concert tickets, secondary market. I mean, they literally use the same word. So I’m listening this going, like, wow, this is just a lot of lessons here. What, you know, obviously, the industry is different, the products are different. But it especially when you get into the realm of Hey, some of these companies that are distilleries, are they they’re public companies, right, they’re not they’re not the heaven hills, you know, the family run companies know, this has been Suntory, right. They’re interested in shareholder value, and that the bottles of their product, have a value. And if it seemed that there is another avenue to unlock the greater value of those bottles, why would they not redirect that inventory to this other market where they can actually get that value? And that’s what that’s what Ticketmaster Live Nation and up to and actually Ticketmaster Live Nation, the promoters, the venues, the artists very interestingly enough for the shows go right to the secondary market. So they’re getting those you know, it might have a face value for whatever that’s worth of 3040 bucks, but really, the artist is getting a good chunk of the 200 300 $400 that’s going for the secondary market. And the same way that again being Suntory they launch I don’t know they just told I’ve taught my head right now that the signature 12 here, you know, they were normally the MSRP being at you know, 50 like wait a minute, we they have a Sastre you know that the value of that is actually 100 or so why the hell are someone else taken that 50 bucks as a beam Suntory shareholder Mind you, that’s the you know, the avenue to take their it’s like no, we have this is a very valid, we’ve created now this legal secondary market is a perfectly good way for them to take and unlock the value of those bottles and getting 50 bucks just as a you know, more per bottle. Wow. It’s a Pandora’s box here opening it.

Yeah, I was gonna say you opened up a can of worms while we’re opening things up here. Because I mean, I couldn’t even imagine if that were the thing that Yeah, the beams the will. It’s the four roses, the the small distilleries down in Texas, whatever it is the you know, and there is there’s too much red tape. There’s too many laws today that that don’t allow this to happen to just go straight to secondary. And and you bring up a good point of like, God, what what if that day actually came to be able to say, yeah, let’s let’s break down all these barriers like you, you make the product, you own the product, you figured out how to sell the product? And in the fact that it’s a controlled substances is the bad part of being a? How has it has to be in regards to that you can’t actually necessarily do what’s best for commerce, I guess you could say sometimes, but I couldn’t imagine a world that that happened. And honestly, I don’t think it would be terrible if it did happen.

Well, and you kind of have some people doing that sort of art like well, it’s I mean, hello.

They’re pricing. But that’s, that’s a little bit different. Their pricing to be able to make sure that they’re okay for themselves. But there’s still there’s still there’s still a hand being traded to be able to make sure that they that, you know, they’re still following the three tier system. However, yes, everybody does even doesn’t matter what distiller you work for, there is somebody on the inside, that’s in the groups that knows secondary values. And unlike y’all, we need to keep bumping these prices up because people aren’t going to stop buying.

Well, not, but they’re taking doing these prices to try and to deter, I guess it from going to secondary market. And so they’re kind of doing but I mean, it’s not working yet, because it’s not gotten so crazy out of control. But like, for instance, you know, the Christmas, I went to Willits, and they were having 10 euros for $300, and 14 years for $450. And I’m like, well, that’s way out of my way out of my price range. And, and then I just don’t see anybody paying six 700 bucks for that for those types of bottles, you know, and but so I don’t know, you know, they do that with that kind of help. Do what we’re talking about, I guess,

I guess that’s a good question. I mean, should should they should distilleries start pricing things so absurdly that it does sort of start killing this market? Little by little.

I could be I mean, look at Dave Becquerel, may he rest in peace, that was definitely his view. That’s why you know, whistle pig was or the boss hogs or 500 bucks retail. And it’s that that has stayed relatively consistent. They still obviously shows up in the secondary market, just good people are, you know, need to resell it’s a, it’s the role of the secondary market is not just for making money, it’s some bits in it just to resell it like I have this good I no longer

access or anything. Exactly.

So it’s in the end. I mean, there’s so many things companies in the bourbon world that are private, you don’t have to follow, they follow whatever rules they want saturate being the biggest among Of course, so they don’t have that shareholder pressure. I’m just I think you think of the companies with the public companies and that kind of pressure from their shareholders. And it’s just, you know, the, the nice things we talked about is bourbon enthusiast, and you know, the way that heaven Hill runs there, but that the family aspect, and we don’t want it, we want to keep bourbon, affordable for everyone. So I’ll keep prices low, it don’t quite fly when it comes to public company and public shareholders have got to stand up in front and wonder, you know, why they’re there. Why that X amount of dollars per every bottle sold is going to some own else, when it could be coming to the distillery. So, I mean, certainly will it it will it is like, it’s actually a quite interesting example. I mean, because it wasn’t just I mean, can you you guys are right there, you know how fast those prices have gone up at the gift shop itself. You know, in the past year or two, I had a guy that lives right around there. A friend of mine that I gave him some, somebody to grab me whatever they had, and it was, you know, a great 14 year bourbon, and he got it for 250 bucks for what, two years ago? And what are they going to said they were for 1514 years or so? They were for a little bit, but then they they kind of dropped down? They’ve been kind of all over the place. Yeah, really can’t put it down.

But they just had a 15 year release. That was 250. So I just want to go back to the days when it’s just 10 bucks. Yeah, 10 bucks a year was a nice.

Little, I think those days are behind us.

Oh, yes, they are. And I kind of want to sort of wrap this up with one final question. And that is to say that, you know, we needed mentioned, you know, we’re in the media, we are bringing this to light like this is a thing. But we’re not the only ones that have brought it to light. Like there’s there’s countless articles that are out there. There’s been spirit industry shows where they have breakout sessions on sort of stuff like this, too. So nobody’s unaware of this. But let’s just say that the government it is sitting behind the lines right now. And they’re watching everything. They’re taking notes, and they’re figuring out, how do they close down every secondary market outlet in one night? with how large this is gone through a community aspect? Do you think that if they were to close everything in one night, would it actually prevent a secondary market? Or would it be like, just like everything, what else would happen is like, you shut down a Facebook group, there’s 12 more, they’re going to spin up right behind it.

Well, yeah, the demands not going anywhere, certainly. And the beneficiary or should be the retailers who are charging secondary prices right now. I mean, you want the you can only do a quick check on wine searcher will tell you all you need to know about that, no matter what state you’re in. So while you do, you would lose the trading aspect of the community aspect of it, demand wouldn’t go away, and people want bottles, they’ll just say pay the same price as they’re willing to pay, you know, someone over it off. It would just go to their liquor store, go online and get a shift from New York and New York prices. It’ll just happen if they want it, they’ll they’ll get it, you know, through another avenue in this case, you know, obviously illegal one retailer. But yeah, you would lose, you lose the community lose the trading, but you don’t lose the demand. I mean, if that’s the

demand, I might increase

the demand. Right? You then retailers, like wait a minute, I don’t have this whole gray market or black market to deal with? I can make a deal, you know, price even higher, and there’s someone that’s willing to come, you know, and drop that kind of cash on it. Really, yeah. This problem has a lot of issue. The second year market has so many different angles and so many different things to you know, it means a lot to the bourbon means a lot to people I mean, it’s a very personal kind of product. And and in the history of Kentucky, and its unique industry, unique product, unique people it’s going to be it’s going to be an effort, it’s going to be an effort, I think I mean, the ship, once I think it’s a good thing that they’re starting to kind of taken the whack with the shipping. Like, that’s just start there. Yeah, advice, you know, access and distribution. And, and I, you guys talked a lot about Amazon on Tuesday, I would be I would not be surprised with as a team. That’s a, that’s been working long and hard for a long time to try to crack this nut. And there’s a lot of highly paid people with a lot of money, and a lot of access. And don’t be surprised if it comes to past.

You always wonder like with someone with will like well, it’s or any if shipping were legal, you know, to get it to the people that want it would there ever been, you know, a secondary market or need for that? Just because people around here, just do it to make money, you know, they go to the store to flip it, or go to the gift shop to buy them and flip them because they know like there’s a buyer out there that will get them that can’t get them right now. But if there was a legal way to access them, whether even be a need for a secondary market?

Well, that’s I think that’s that’s one corner case. Yeah, that, you know, that’s just that’s just one distillery, I think. And I think for the most part, most distilleries, I don’t know if they’ll ever want to get to that point, because they’re there. They’re so large and so vast, that that would create its own huge operation to even deal with that sort of thing. So who knows the numbers the numbers don’t bear out. I’m looking here and market share of the leading whiskey brands in 2017 2018.

Any guesses on the top five, which make up half of the whiskey market.

I believe there’s Jamison,

there’s one out of India, I think that was like one of the largest whiskey.

That’s world under the document. That’s a word This is just us. Now number one, jack daniels, number two Crown Royal number three fireball number four, Jim Beam number five Jamison. half your market and five brands. The stuff we’re talking about the volume of the supply, it is not even peanuts, too. And it’s it would create for that for to distillery focus on they’re just a big headache. You know, I mean, it’s like it’s a focus thing for them. Unless, unless it becomes more it becomes so advantageous for them to example, I guess they sell a higher volume product and make 25 bucks 50 bucks more per bottle. That’s a different story.

Hell, I didn’t know fireball was more in demand that Jamison. That’s good news for me.

But you know, for 8% of the market, it’s fascinating. This stuff fascinates me. It really does. Because like jack daniels at 13.27% of the US market last year. Wow. That’s a lot. I mean, a lot of all, it’s we don’t think about that. Because you know, it’s not going to be probably don’t drink it, drink, drink it rarely, we only think of ourselves every

single bar, every single blessed. Everything we talked about does not benefit the greater public. It was just bit of it.

So Nate, I want to say thank you so much for coming on the show today. It was it was a pleasure to have you and and bring this topic up because I think it’s it’s very timely. It’s It’s very pretty much the forefront of anybody that is a bourbon geek like this is this is the stuff we talk and think about every single day.

Yeah, there’s not a day or night that I’m not scrolling through secondary market posts to see what’s selling what’s not what’s people laughter I mean, it’s a part of our, our daily life, and it’s consumes us. So yeah, it’s definitely a hot topic for all of us.


Yeah, I think somebody in the chat said they were scrolling through be you know, that’s, that’s, that’s, this is what we do. Yeah, you know, but I think we have a pretty good system the way it is now. And so maybe we just leave it as be.

So Nate, thank you. Once again, make sure you follow bourbon pursuit on Facebook, Twitter, and Instagram at bourbon pursuit. And also help the show support the show be a part of this community that we’re building right here on Patreon patreon.com slash bourbon pursuit because one of the great things that you get as a part of this is being able to watch these shows and actually comment as they’re happening live. And so we had a few people in and I’m getting really mad at Hangouts, because we can’t see exactly how many people I know are in the show are actually watching live anymore. So I got to go back and see what sort of views that were. You know, this was, this is also it’s, it’s just fun to be a part of this. And so thank you so much. And thank you, Nate for being a part of the community as well.

Yeah. Thank you. I appreciate it.

Yeah, and as always, we love show suggestions, feedback, comments. Let us know what you want to hear Nate. Appreciate you hanging out with us and talking about an interesting topic appreciates, and we’ll see you next time.

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