If you’re a bourbon die hard, you’ve probably asked yourself this question, “Do bourbon brands care about me?”. You know what I’m talking about because you join in on the conversation when distilleries increase prices or you get angry because your barrel picking group has been snubbed out for allocation reasons. The Bourbon Pursuit team takes a hard look at many of the larger whiskey producers by looking at some of their past actions. But if you’re the whiskey producer, what would you do in the same situation?

Show Notes:

• Wilderness Trail Expansion: https://amnews.com/2019/10/03/wilderness-trail-distillery-expanding-planning-huge-announcement/
• Toddy’s: https://www.liquor.com/articles/best-bourbon-store-toddys-liquors/#gs.7u244v
• Glenlivet Scotch Pods: https://www.cnn.com/2019/10/05/world/glenlivet-scotch-whisky-capsule-glassless-trnd/index.html
• Scotch Tariffs: https://www.cnn.com/2019/10/03/business/us-tariffs-whisky-wine/index.html
• This week’s Above the Char with Fred Minnick talks about line etiquette.
• What are your thoughts on the Heaven Hill Bottled-in-Bond relaunch?
• What do you think Heaven Hill did wrong in that situation?
• Are we moving away from a $15 price point?
• What about the Booker’s price increase?
• Let’s discuss Maker’s attempt to lower the proof.
• What about Sazerac’s strategy?
• What about Brown-Forman?
• What’s happening with the allocation of barrel picks? Are people or groups getting cut off?

Transcription:

0:00
Hey everybody. If you have a bachelor’s degree and live anywhere in the United States, there’s now a way for you to take your bourbon education to the next level. The distilled spirits business certificate from the University of Louisville is an online program that can be completed in as little as 15 weeks and will prepare you for the business side of the spirits industry. It’s offered by the ACS be accredited college of business, and this certificate was developed in partnership with industry experts to be one of a kind and it’s going to prepare you for your next adventure. Learn more about this online program at U of l.me slash

0:35
pursue spirits All right,

0:37
let me see if I can’t get everybody to just like Quiet on the set here.

0:41
All right, Quiet on the set.

0:56
Hey everybody, what is going on? It is Episode 220. of bourbon pursuit. I’m one of your host Kenny, and we’ve got a ton of news to run through. Let’s not wait let’s dive into it. Eagle rare bourbon is announcing the 10th annual Eagle rare life award. Now Eagle rare has partnered with garden and gun to seek nominations for the 10th annual Eagle rare life award. The award celebrates those who lead a rare life as defined by showing courage, leadership survival, devotion, character and heroism. Past recipients have included Brian Anderson representing USA cares in Jake Clark of save a warrior to nominate a remarkable individual for the annual Eagle where life award submit an application by November 3 2019. The finalists and their stories will be featured on garden and gun calm from November 15 to December 6, and they allows you to go and cast your votes. The winner of this award will be announced in early 2020. We talk all the time about how big players in the industry are always expanding but now we get to see one sort of on the mid size wilderness trail. Now you’ve heard from Pat heist and Shane Baker back on episodes 121 at 130. They are playing to add three new additional buildings to their site, including a 13,000 square foot addition. This is going to be an expansion of their bottling and administration buildings plus two new brick houses each totaling around 16,624 square feet. They will store 20,520 barrels each and they will be next in line for construction. The distilleries bottling operation is undergoing a $1.5 million dollar expansion right now with a new automated bottling line and warehouse space as they are going to be adding also more headcount in operations and administration. The distillery is currently wrapping up around a $6 million in capital projects for 2019 and as $8 million in projects underway for 2020. But now that you’re doing close to 215 barrels of whiskey per day, you can read more about this in our show notes with the link to AM news.com. Back on episode 152. We featured Guthrie McKay of Tommy’s liquors. Now this topic is polarizing to some folks. Today Guthrie charges more than secondary prices for his advocated bourbon and with this small shop that has a lot of listeners and shoppers going through, it puts them in a mixed and almost kind of gets you’re frustrated and mad. But Guthrie has seen the highs and lows and he was a kind of a key and secret ingredient to helping the whiskey boom. And you can hear some of those stories that we were counted back on that episode 152 but you know Guthrie was also this week featured in a liquor.com article titled The best bourbon store on earth. And that might be a little bit of clickbait, but we’ve provided a few quotes to give context the story, and you can read that article with the link in our show notes as well. Jim beam’s knob Creek is announcing a new limited edition bottling called quarter oak. The new release finishes knob Creek bourbon and quarter oak casks for four years. Now quarter casts are as the name suggests, one quarter the size of traditional 53 gallon barrels. And as we’ve seen this before, this means that there’s an increase in the surface area with the charred oak relative the volume of whiskey inside. You can call it accelerated aging but it could just mean different types of taste profiles that are coming out of it. But when this finished product is going to be dumped from the Quarter Cask. It is then blended with knob Creek and bottled at 100 proof to create the knob Creek quarter oak, this is going to have a suggested retail price of $50. And with more release news heaven Hill is announcing that they are doing their first line extension of larceny, Kentucky straight bourbon whiskey larceny barrel proof released on an allocated basis three times per year. The first release of this weekend bourbon will ship in January of 2020. larceny barrel proof offers whiskey fans the opportunity to taste larceny just as heaven hills master distiller does Connor straight from the barrel. Each release will have varying proofs and consists of barrels aged of six to eight years old with releases in January may in September. This is also going to have the same naming convention that we’ve seen with Elijah Craig barrel proof. So the first release will be a 120 a representing the first batch of the year one representing the month with this January and 20 representing the year 2020. Each release will be bottled at barrel proof non chill filtered and available at a suggested retail price of 4999. we first saw it with black and which is metallic is new whiskey, followed by collaboration Slipknot with an Iowa whiskey company and now few spirits and Warner Music artists services are announcing a new release called all secrets know which is a new limited edition bourbon distilled by few spirits master distiller Paul help go in collaboration with Grammy nominated and multi Platinum selling Seattle grunge pioneers. Allison chains now whose music has also stood the test of time and pollutes a generation as well as a lot of whiskey lovers out there two bottles will feature a custom design label by artists Justin Helton. For this release few bourbon is finished for six months in tequila barrels bottled at 101 proof and will have an MSRP or suggested retail price of $75. This game this is how bourbon pursuit we hardly ever really talked about scotch, but the Glenlivet has the internet up in arms because they have released something that was new. It was a video and the Internet has coined it scotch pots. They are clear seaweed wraps that are completely edible and have a cocktail in a clear capsule, Glenlivet partnered with a sustainable startup on this new idea, and it has everyone talking about it. Some folks thought it was April Fool’s in October, but we’ll see who has the last laugh on this one. If they catch on, they will be served during London celebration of college tail innovation through October 13. And you can read about that with more in our show notes. We’ve talked about terrorists on the podcast before and terrorists, the retaliation are coming back harder and harder. The US is now going to be imposing a 25% tariff on scotch whiskey being imported into the US. This is going to increase the price of scotch for Americans. The US is the largest market with over $1 billion of scotch whiskey being exported in 2018. Well, perhaps this might get more people drinking bourbon in the end, but who knows what the outfall of this could be. You can read more about it with the link in our show notes as well. Now speaking of what things that we have going on, our community took one for the team and selected a barrel at Traverse City which ended up being a seven year in GP, or incredibly fortunate that we get to bring these experiences to our Patreon community and happy that all these whiskey geeks get to be a part of them. We have a new barrel pic to announce which is in addition to our last one week that we announced which is our Eagle wearable are also adding in to 2019 k jack daniels barrel proof that will be taking place in December. This is going to bring our 2019 tally to 19 barrels selected. And we’ve already got our first barrel lineup for 2020 as well. Thanks once again to our retail partner, keg and bottle out of the San Diego area for making this all happen. You can go check out their website and get whiskey shipped straight to your door at keg the letter in bottle.com. today’s podcast it’s one for the diehards, you know who you are because you join in the conversation when distilleries are increasing their prices are you get angry because your barrel picking group got snubbed because of allocation reasons. Now the trio of bourbon pursuit we’re here to talk about some of the actions that we’ve seen over the past year and contemplate. Do bourbon companies actually care about their consumers? Or is this just a part of a bigger game that we all have to play? We mentioned it towards the end of the show. But if

9:00
You’re a producer and you’re listening to us. Just know that we love you. And we do our best to play devil’s advocate. But there’s some things that we saw that we really feel like we should take the bourbon communities view and kind of really talk about it put out there in the open and see what happens. So hope you’re going to enjoy this one. Alright, so let’s get down to it. Here’s Joe from barrell bourbon. And then you’ve got Fred Minnick. What’s up the char? It’s Joe from barrell bourbon. We enjoy finding and identifying barrels that contain distinctive traits and characteristics. We then bottle them a cash rank to retain their authentic qualities for the whiskey enthusiast. Keep up to date with our newsletter at barrell bourbon.com.

9:37
I’m Fred Minnick. And this is above the char, I reached out to my followers on Twitter for this idea, and bourbon West came up with a good one. He wanted to know how we could improve the etiquette of standing in lines for bourbon. And he’s speaking in particular of the etiquette towards the distillery, the store owner, the proprietary, he’s saying that he sees some disgusting behavior out there when it comes to standing in line for these were bottles. So thanks, bourbon west for this idea. And here’s the thing, if we want bourbon so badly, that we’re willing to camp out overnight stand in a long line, I bring my kids to these things. So I have to it’s it’s the only way I can get there because my wife will be out of town or she’ll be running. And the only way I can go to a lot of these events is if I bring my kids and so right then and there. I’m kind of like an odd man out people look at me funny because I’ve got my kids. And I’m standing in line for bourbon. So they’re like, there’s there’s your dad of the year. But you do see people like get very angry toward the store owner, if they are the last in line and they don’t get a bottle. Or they’re at the front and they can’t get what they want. Or they see a bottle in the store and the store owner wants sell it to them. I’ve seen people yell, I’ve seen people throw tantrums. And then you see people on social media afterwards, just absolutely tearing apart a business for them not selling him a bottle. And is that right? Well, you know, it’s free speech. And people have the they can do whatever they want. But when you’re inside someone’s property, and you are there as a customer, there are some things that you should do first, you should never really raise your voice to the store owner. That could be you know, considered threatening, and, you know, if somebody wanted to, they could kick you out, and you should be just a good decent human being. You got to remember this whole bourbon thing. It’s, it’s just a hobby. It isn’t something it’s not life and death. We’re not curing cancer. We’re trying to get a nice bottle of bourbon. So treat people with respect. And so there are three rules that I recommend that everyone carry when it goes into the stores. dress nice it This may sound very weird, but people do not act like assholes when they dress nice. Now what is nice now you know I wear an ascot I’m not saying you have to do that, for God’s sake. I’m the only person left on the planet still wearing the damn things. But you know, maybe like a like a polo shirt and khakis and a pair of nice shoes. And you’ll find that you don’t want to be a dickhead when your dress pretty nicely. Number to say thank you. Even if you do not get the bottle you want the store manager, the store clerk anybody you interact with the distillery whoever, just say thanks. And number three, the people who you’re around with start talking to them. Where are they from? Some of the best friends I’ve made in bourbon have been from standing in line at these places. You really do meet some cool people. They’ll be from all over the state or country and sometimes even out of the country because it’s their only opportunity to get a rare bottle. So just practice those three things. And it seems like little but hopefully it will diffuse someone else from being a dickhead when they’re shopping bourbon. And that’s this week’s above the char. Hey, if you have an idea like bourbon West did hit me up on Twitter or Instagram at Fred Minnick. That’s at Fred Minnick. Until next week. Cheers.

13:15
welcome back to this episode of bourbon pursuit the official podcast of bourbon, the whole trio here today. Wow, hoping we don’t burn some bridges. Right? I mean, we’re going to be bringing the heat putting some people under some fire. But also, I think speaking for the broader bourbon community that’s out there, because we’re going to be talking and the subject is, you know, do distilleries actually care about their customers? And this is we thought about this idea. Because, gosh, what was it probably six months ago, we had this this concept of like, everything The news was changing. There’s people that are taking off products, there’s allocations of barrels that are just getting axed across the board from Yeah, as Fred always said, people that took you to the dance. So today, we’re going to,

13:57
you know, barrel programs not kind of going he usually just made it him.

14:02
And so that’s exactly what today we’re really gonna be focusing on is, is looking at and hopefully, you know, I think we’re going to take some, put some fire, put some heat and do some people, we all got to play a little devils advocate, right? Kind of will, one of us one of us will kind of take the role of, well, if the distillers that if I’m the distiller here, like, what’s my response? Male? Fuck

14:21
it, let’s just, whatever, whatever I mean, it this is this is a conversation that we need to have. Yeah, they need to know, we need to have this conversation because they’re, you know, I feel like sometimes distilleries live in a bubble. They live in a bubble of their bottom line, and, you know, help benefiting their shareholders. And the informations out there. It’s not like they can’t go to a social media forum and find the data find, find people conveying their feelings about what consumers want and what they need. You know, their two years ago, they’d spent $150,000, to get the kind of feedback that is free now. Yeah, on social media. And what I have found consistently, is that they continue to ignore a lot of what people want, or what at least what they’re saying they want on social media.

15:20
Absolutely. Well, they got short memories. They forget that like, just 10 or 15 years ago, nobody gave a shit about them.

15:27
So before we also kick it off and dive even further, you know, if you’re watching on video, you might be hearing some background noise and people shuffling through because we are recording an episode of this podcast from the barrel room at Hotel distil, which is going to be on historic whiskey row here in Louisville, and it’s set to open on November 1. And hotel distill is a place that is exciting. It’s got a rich history that’s happening here. It’s now being transformed into this great space. It’s designed to really, you know, what they say is ignite your passion for discovery and we’ll do this

16:00
Social anchor for Louisville’s revitalization and refinement of bourbon culture and you can book your experience now and stay at this authentic little destination at Hotel distil com. Yeah, I think this JTS Browns office they said at one point there Yeah, this is the actual building his office I had no idea Fred you got any insight into Yeah, this is this is the this is one of the I actually have an old photo of of like the

16:28
an old photo of like the outside and said JTS Brown, it was actually out there.

16:31
Yeah. facade.

16:33
Yeah. And, you know, a lot of cool things happened in here.

16:37
It just amazes like 1015 years ago, all this was like a dump. And yeah, I mean, it was it was like a Renaissance. I mean,

16:43
it was I saw what whiskey row was. I mean, I remember one of our first podcast we did was actually saving whiskey row and what it was, and all the effort that went in for historical and preservation societies of what it went to actually save a lot of the buildings and the facades that you do see out here,

16:57
guys, I want you to think about this. You know, in the 1800s, early 1900s, there were fellows walking around and their suits, go into meetings, and they were brokering deals about bulk whiskey. And they were talking about, like, you know, exporting it to Japan or Germany or wherever. I mean, this is where all the action happened. for American whiskey, where it’s like, we’re right here at the wall street of whiskey. I really don’t like using that term, but it is it really is. And it just kind of went away. And level. You know, I and I give a lot of this credit to our mayor, Mayor Fischer. Greg Fischer. I really don’t think, you know, any of this Renaissance happens without, you know, kind of like his, his vision to like, improve, improve this part of our culture.

17:46
Well, and I know and it might be a slider, Ryan, you know, he always has this famous line that you know Bardstown as the capital of bourbon, but it still is global is the epicenter of bourbon. Well, maybe now.

17:58
10 years ago, not so much. Nobody cared about down there, down here. They saw how cool it was in barge towns, they’re like, Oh, we gotta do we gotta go do it now.

18:05
Absolutely.

18:06
So I’ll play a Bardstown can put up some hotels like this, I think

18:10
they missing it. They need this, put a distill and bars down the awesome. Here we go.

18:15
So let’s go ahead. And let’s dive back into the subjects here. And let’s go ahead and we’ll take we’ll take an easy one, right. I mean, this is one that is a recent news because as people in ourselves live in little boy live in Kentucky, we had access to the white label have six year Heaven and Hell bottle and bond. And it was a, you know, it kind of made. It was pretty big news, right? I mean, when they said they were gonna take it off the market. However, there was no announcement to say that there was going to be a relaunch, there’s no anything like that. It was just something that I think it usually kind of started through the grapevine where the distributors found out about it distributors told the retailers, the retailers then told the consumers and then from there, everything went kind of Bismarck, and people just started clearing the shelves left and right. And Kentucky is actually finding this, this white label. And fast forward two to three months afterwards, then a press release comes out that says they’re gonna be relaunching with an additional year, and, you know, three x the actual price of what it was before, before you can get it around, what 1215 bucks. And then it was coming back with an SRP of $40. But not only this is also be going out a little bit further outside of Kentucky hitting I think, what 678 states something like that during its first launch. So let’s kind of talk about that. What do you think heaven hell did wrong in this situation?

19:41
Well, they, we kind of talked about this on the round table, but you know, that they think we’re like stupid or something like they just totally like think, as consumers, like, we’ll put out this press release. And just believe what we say. And it happened with the logic, Craig 12. You know, for years, we were like, we’re like, oh, we’re gonna move the 12 from the front to the back. And you’re like, is it going away, no, never, never gone away. And then it goes from the back. It’s not no longer and a number, they write the letter 12 or the word 12 on the back. And then after that, and it’s like, you think we’re stupid, then they do the same thing with heaven Hill, like six year they’d say, Oh, it’s going away and never coming back. And then, you know, home to hold. Three months later, get a press release. And so it’s like, I get what they’re doing, they’re going to try to make it a more premium product to the mainstream audience. But like 10 to 15 years ago, nobody cared about you.

20:40
I mean, let’s let’s also, I’ll take their side, little bit here, you know, not even told that that was really happening. Not a ton of people really cared about the white label. I mean, it was always available. It’s always there. It was something that was kind of our whiskey geek. Like it was like the thing you knew about like, you’re like, that’s the bottle that you go, that’s 99 or 1099, that you could always count on as a

21:04
great poor at a great value. And like you said, it was kind of you had to be in the know to know about it.

21:10
To answer your question, Kenny, I think the one thing that the mistake they made was transparency. And I I’m very, very close with with heaven Hill, I think their whiskies fantastic. Some of the best I mean, I they do a great job. But I think in this growth of American whiskey, there has been a, there still has been a little bit of this kind of like old school protectionism, of holding on to their ideas and what they’re going to be doing, you know, to kind of protect it from, you know, their competitors finding out. Well, really what has happened is that consumers, we feel like we have a right to know, of like, what’s happening,

22:00
But what are they hiding? Like? It’s whiskey. Like they act like they got like

22:06
you would if they said, We are pulling heaven hills, six year old off the market, to rebrand it, and bring it back as a seven year old bottle and bond at an additional price to more consumers? Would you be? See that’s just I think most people would be fine with that. And the last thing I would have been fine with, hey, we really want this to stay available on shelves, we don’t want to be like, well, they’re 12. So that’s why we’re going to drop the age statement, kind of do a blend of eight to 12 which, by the way, they 12. So I mean, I was to use Preston van winkles term, I was bought hurt for probably about two years.

22:45
You still don’t let it go.

22:47
But it was Elijah Craig 12 years is like so

22:50
tricky. Just like, like we’re in it, but the age statement, you know, write it on the back and like had it and then eventually just phase it out and then change it.

22:58
I also so so that that’s to me is the only thing the business decision to do it. I don’t have a problem with and I don’t think it’s them not caring about their consumers? I think it’s I think it’s simply a I think they make a decision and they try to think about the best way to release it. And they’re not thinking about necessarily the backlash and the whiskey geek state, we are still very much a very small portion. We are the one percenters

23:23
right, that’s that’s the one one thing I think, if I keep taking the distillery side of this, and I keep thinking, well, if I’m heaven Hill, I, my goal is to look at the broader market, right? My goal is to focus on that. And when I even put out these press releases, who cares? Except, you know, the 10,000 people that are like really hardcore into this, right. And

23:47
I’m still just flabbergasted by like, they think they have this secret stuff. Do you think like Buffalo Trace gives a shit that they’re taking heaven Hill six off year and bringing it and relaunching it like, what do they? What do they think they’re hiding? Like, I didn’t mean from a competitive stamp, right? Like, yeah, I mean, this, whiskey takes years to develop to what it becomes. And so like, when you announce something, you’ve thought about it for a very long time, like, somebody just can’t replicate it, like a month later, you know,

24:14
let’s remember to 14 years ago, when there was like, there were like, two or three of us out there, kind of writing about this sort of thing. Now, I mean, you have a sea of social media, people, you know, finding a bottle, you know, analyzing every single thing, and it’s very knowledgeable base. And so we can, you know, people can find out things really quickly. And also heaven hills got a you know, they have a few people in their organization that, you know, will get on social media and or under anonymous handles and say things. So there’s that some moles they have,

24:52
they have some leaders. And so does that mean, they all do?

24:55
Nailed it? So I’ll take the other side of this. And we had Larry cast on the show, right? You know, before he retired, and Larry is still being even in his retirement. He’s actually been very outspoken on this even on social media and Hall

25:07
of Famer, by the way, yes, yes.

25:08
Recent inductee to it. Yeah. And, you know, he goes against the saying is insane. Like, the brand has been undervalued for far too long. True. And it’s and it’s very true. I think, I think bourbon in itself has been undervalued for this is very true. I agree with all that. But I guess, you know, when we look at it from another standpoint of, you know, if we’re going to, is there a market to keep bringing $15 bottles of whiskey or where are we past that because it had been that way for so long is it do we just need to move on. And

25:37
so I’ve done some research and the studies show that when you raise prices, you actually get more customers. And I’ve witnessed many people go into liquor stores and my various, you know, book signings and stuff and you know, they’re new to bourbon, they don’t know anything about it. And the the store rap will try to get someone to buy four roses yellow label, and they’ll look at the price. And they say, No, it’s too cheap. I want that one. And they’ll point to like Jefferson’s reserve. And I’m picking I’m picking four roses yellow label every day of the week, over Jefferson’s reserve. We still love Trey about Yeah, still. Yes, but but that from a value perspective, you know, I’m saying it’s like, that’s like, it’s, you know, I’m saving pennies, or I’m saving, you know, 1015 bucks. Absolutely. But the the everyday consumer looks at this as a luxury good. And $15 isn’t luxury. And that’s that’s kind of where they’re, that’s where these these distillers you’re coming from?

26:38
Yeah, and understand that from like, if you’re buying a gift or wanting to try something special, but if you’re wanting like, quality everyday drinkers, you know that you gotta have an affordable option like 30 $30 for heaven Hill balled and bond, I think, or whatever, it’s gonna be $40. I think it’s overpriced for what it is. I’m, it’s me, it’s good. But I can drink some great, didn’t you?

27:04
Me it was that great. He kept he kept

27:05
himself from

27:08
Above Average?

27:11
Well, I mean, from an everyday drinker to like, Am I going to go buy it at 40. Whereas if I would have it, you know, constantly on my bar, but they don’t care about me, they care about the mass audience. And so,

27:22
all right, so here’s the here’s the sad, hard truth of it. The only line against this is the bartender, the bartender, has to have it at a surf a certain price in order for them to make money. And you can’t make a $40 cocktail, right? You gotta it’s got to be 10 to 15. So that’s why that’s why like in scotch, you know, they have like monkey shoulder and Glenlivet, 12 year old, you know, it’s very affordable, you know, well, scotches, and the bartender community will always make sure that we have a 15 to $25 bird, because they have to make money on it. And you know, Larry rice is not going to be making cocktails with you know, $55 bourbon.

28:09
Absolutely. So I guess that’s the kind of like, makes me think of another question. Like, if one of the main strategies behind bullet and how bullet became so big was because they were able to get behind the bar. Yeah. So in bullet is not a 15 $20 bottle, right. I mean, last time I checked, it’s still in the 35 to $50 category. I don’t

28:29
know I actually I’ve seen it for I saw like $18 Cosmo, is it?

28:33
Yeah, well, nevermind. Yeah. bullets in the sub $25 range, we found out what Kenny doesn’t buy.

28:41
Just don’t pay that much attention, apparently.

28:45
So I think we beat up on heaven Hill a little bit. So I think,

28:48
well not beat up on them. It’s just they know, the criticism. And they, they they see it. And it’s also stuff that I wouldn’t tell them to their face. You know, like, I guess we’ll do it on the podcast. back. No one’s gonna hear the end day always push back of like, we are. We’re a business and we’re trying to make money. What I really the thing about it is I also feel bad for heaven Hill, because they get they do get a lot of blowback, and poor Bernie lovers. That guy’s doing his job.

29:21
Yeah, but they do it themselves. They do it

29:22
themselves. But Bernie’s like, sometimes just kind of left on an island. He’s got to be the punching bag, you know? And it’s like, I hope they’re paying him well, and if not, they need to give him a raise, because that he takes a lot of a

29:34
lot of abuse. And it feels he gotta have a little bit of empathy for him too, because he ends up being like the spokesperson for the brand. I mean, yeah, right. Ryan, do you remember when we interviewed him? We had a two part interview. And we actually asked him, we asked him about Elijah Craig, and the 12 year age statement. And he looked, I mean, he came and he said, and he has no, it’s not going away. You know, we’re just moved to the back and little blah. And then, like, two months later,

29:57
again, whoops. Yeah, you know, we had to do this because make it available. And it’s like, well, two minutes later, it was available and what changed it to

30:05
remember to like, automation, he had, oh, it’s not his fault. It’s and that’s the and that’s also the information that the someone gave him had, you know, so, you know, the decision was made that I have no doubt that, you know, they’re looking at stocks and they’re looking at where the future is and everything, and they make they make decisions in a moment and, and then everyone else is is forced to, like kind of

30:31
catch up to it. I guess. I just don’t understand. I understand. Yes, Bourbons undervalued. I totally agree with that. But that’s what your logic Craig’s your inner McKenna’s your Evan Williams single barrels your William heaven hills that’s what they’re those are brands are for heaven Hill has been a everyday affordable drinker. I don’t understand why pivot takeaway from those brands to position this one when it’s been like a bomb on the shelf all for all i also

30:58
think so you’re thinking one particular thing get to realize when you go to Heaven Heaven hell we’ve all been in the label room there’s hundreds of thousands of labels that they have maybe not hundreds but the definitely thousands Yeah, and I’m pretty sure like a bought every abandoned trademark of Oh, I just don’t know that. So let me keep going here because I know when you think about the heaven hell bottom Yvonne that’s one thing but you still got Evan lanes bottle and bond. You’ve got virgin you’ve got all these things but don’t get me wrong I know people are starting to hate on the virgin thing now because they’re dropping the age statement off that one as well. So you know it’s just a continual progression of what are they going to be able to do

31:32
be honest that was the best marketing that virgin ever had no one knew about that fucking perfect. I mean, we can hear me there’s like we knew about it sounded but like i was i was cracking up with like all these people like, like you didn’t know about that bourbon. It was a very like I mean, heaven Hill bottle the mom people knew about it, but it’s like out of the woodwork they’re all a virgin fan. Like Come on.

31:54
Yeah, that was where it was mostly in like North Carolina Yeah.

31:58
There was like a Washington’s like, I can’t get any worse. Like you couldn’t get it anyway.

32:02
Yeah, you know, so not even be tried. But

32:04
it’s like I don’t know what you’re saying they

32:06
still came out. I mean, they rebranded it and came out of quality house right. So it’s still still the same box he you know,

32:14
let’s mean heaven hills seven years old and bond thousand barrel dump is not a $40 bottle like it

32:24
I get it, it’s a rebranding. It’s a way to do this. I mean, you can also see this as a way that you know, they they wanted to remove the name heaven Hill, from lower in tears, like, okay, green labels not

32:35
gone away the 90 proof one, you know why? Because someone in the Shapiro family, that’s what they buy. Oh, well, so it’s on their it’s on their bar inside. And so it’ll it’ll always be there because they that’s what they drink. You know, I think it’s probably important that we also look at some of the some of the brands that have reacted to consumers pushing back pricing. Like when Booker’s announced that they were going to be $100 bottle, you know, they went, they they reverted pretty quickly, because they were like, they were getting a murder. Remember that?

33:13
Oh, yeah, just it was

33:14
11 years ago, they changed it, but yeah,

33:16
they changed it back. And, you know, they didn’t have to change any branding or anything. But, you know, they still have a little bit of residual

33:25
in I mean, to be fair Booker’s, probably, I mean, it’s a barrel proof six year like, really good bourbon. I mean,

33:32
I used to get it for 55 bucks. Yeah. And it was it was

33:37
the most incredible values out there.

33:38
That is a that is to me, that was a more palatable, you know, price increase. You know, they decided change, I think it’s 75 or something like that. CSRP now it’s about it’s probably right where it needs to be and I think people are happy with

33:54
that you were still happy with that. And I mean, I still recommend it to people who haven’t tried something and you want to you know, start elevating and trying to go barrel proof and you know, to kind of just take a note off your above the char from weeks ago, you know, being able to experience the different flavors you can get with barrel proof by starting at barrel proof, adding some water adding some ice letting the ice melt, you know, you get you get to experience bourbon five different ways. In a in a barrel proof whiskey like that. So

34:20
some you can always find to, but you know,

34:22
Becker, Booker’s isn’t the only one remember makers, even what had been five years ago about the 2013? The proof?

34:29
Yeah, the proof debacle, they still won’t, they still won’t talk about it. So for our listeners out there, this is what happened in 2013, Maker’s Mark decided to lower their proof from 90 proof to 84. And they announced it to their brand ambassadors, which is their program that they have for their sir customer loyalty program. So they sent an email to it and people in batch it crazy. It was it was it ended up being front page news, Jay Leno, or one of the you know, the talk shows were talking about it. He was on CNN, it was everywhere. And I got like this. I was I was covering it very, very intensely. And I got these interviews with Bill Samuels and Rob Samuels. And I remember bill saying like, oh, son of a bitch, I guess people really care about our wisdom, you know. And it’s like, they say, Bill always has this way of like, making everything sound funny and putting things in perspective. But they changed it back. But to this day, people think people think it’s a, it was a marketing ploy, because it was only eight days that they had it out there. But think about it, they had to change their labels, you know, they had to pull. Well, they had they already had products out there had

35:42
a product out there. I mean, and that’s kind of I think, I wouldn’t say it’s a unicorn by any means. But it’s definitely a unique bottle that people could have how many 84 proof? maker’s marks do you have? I don’t

35:52
even think I’ve ever had it or tried it.

35:55
Not to have you had it, lady? I know. I bet it I they actually I tasted it on the air for a TV station. I was like, yeah, this is it’s more watered down. It was like very light. There you go. I mean, really, it’s makers is not the I mean, it’s nice, but it’s not the most complex whiskey. You know, it’s it’s fine for what it is. But I really did think it was a bad move from a whiskey perspective, because you could taste the difference. You really could.

36:18
Yeah, but I think they’ve they’ve been able to rebound and with flying colors. So I haven’t really had a problem.

36:26
These companies need like somebody on their team, like they have like bean counters, like making these decisions. You

36:31
know, like, I mean, let’s not like in the in the government, they just don’t have, like, the government has like someone from like, so the VA has like veterans on committees, to, like have like a veteran oversight committee to make sure that the veterans are getting treated like they should be instead of like the, you know, the doctors want, maybe you want to treat them. And I think you’re right, I think that might not be a bad idea. But you know what, they’re never going to go for it. And you know, and here’s an example I can think of like Sazerac in a lot of people’s eyes. They’re their public enemy number one. And that’s that’s because their stuff is highly allocated hard to get. But it’s so damn good. Yeah, so I mean, it’s same with heaven Hill, their whiskey so damn good. It’s kind of like you know, it’s kind of like the it’s a love hate relationship. Exactly. It’s like the the girlfriend you had in high school who couldn’t stand but she was so hot, ready?

37:26
Like, I can’t help myself, like crap, but yeah, I can’t stop

37:31
it. So I guess, you know, will kind of shift the gears a little let’s talk about Sazerac.

37:38
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39:00
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40:48
Parker’s was 5575 bucks. And now it’s like 400, depending on you know, that 24 years, like 400 bucks or 300 bucks

40:57
retail, and then you take a birthday bourbon, for example, back in 2003, that was a $45 bottle. Now, it’s 161 60 out the door at the distillery. So I mean, it’s, it’s, that’s definitely

41:11
something way that the way that says rack operates is basically through the brain of Mark Brown. And Mark is a very conservative, you know, thinker when it comes to business and how they do things. But he’s also a long term planner, they have planned out their whiskey projections through 2043. So they are they are that planned out. And they have made the appropriate, you know, business decisions that, you know, to get them where they need to be, I think that the biggest concern that consumers have with the way that company operates is through distribution. Now a lot of it is not anything that they can control. You go into a retailer or an on premise facility. And they will tell you, the only way that they can get Pappy or Buffalo Trace antique collection is if they carry Wheatley, vodka or some of the others as rack brands in large quantities now, that is that is a decision that is made at the distributor level is not.

42:18
That’s because I always I always kind of thought like, somehow there’s something working in the back the back room over here. And there’s greasy palms to be able to say like, you

42:26
know, I’m saying like, if you want this, you gotta that is a very good conspiracy theory to have. But as of right now, it is illegal, you know, to have those conversations for it is illegal for a, a supplier to dictate who gets what, that is an actual law. That is under the federal alcohol administration act. Now, what is happening? I don’t know. But I do know that everybody wants that whiskey. And, you know, how does how does the distributor make the decision of who to give it to? Now I’ve had conversations with people like Joe Beatrice, who’s like, the only way you can do this is, you know, top, top level now, you know, customer loyalty. And so it’s like, you know, how do they How does the distributor make the decision of who gets the five bottles of Pappy? Is it a? Is it a favoritism thing? Because if that’s the case, that’s also you know, is that is that fair? Is it you give it to the one who’s like doing you’re doing your bulk purchases, I’ve also heard of them like, like the distributors making decisions of like giving using Pappy to get rid of non Sazerac product. So like being would be in their portfolio or, you know, another big brand like that and say like, take up, take all this off of her hand, and you get you get a case of happy. So that stuff happens. And that is not, you know, to my knowledge, you know, I don’t know how that you know how those conversations are going. Well, you don’t know that’s

43:59
the necessarily sighs rags. Yeah. Problem. It’s, it comes back to them. But do you think they falsely manipulate their supply? Like to create this allocation? Like myth or because every time I go to Buffalo Trace, there’s, they’re always bottling blends, and it’s always piled up cases? Because it’s like what they have done. They got as many warehouses as all these

44:25
other big boys. Yeah, but you gotta realize they’re also filling in the hand doing every single one with six people on the line. That’s not that’s not heaven. Hill level automation.

44:33
Yeah. What a lot of warehouses a lot age juice in there. I mean, this is true.

44:38
What what they do, they do put out, they used to put out an annual press release, about that, and it got picked up everywhere. You know, a smart marketing will say that. But what what Buffalo Trace has done is that they have spread the markets out so much like so let’s say, you know, they’re trying to penetrate every market in the country. My best friend lives in northern Wisconsin. He’s building a Buffalo Trace, really now he can only have one bottle a month, because, you know, because now that northern allocations is moving on over to North Dakota. And so what they have done is they have they’re trying to saturate the domestic markets so much that they’ve spread themselves out of being able to get into the hands of a lot of people so so that allocation that supply is because they’re trying to open up bars in Montana, and places like Montana and Wyoming North Dakota. You know, I dare say you walk into a random liquor store there and you might you might find like a gold mine of like Sazerac products.

45:42
Well, where are they? Who are they using their, you know, everyday products like Buffalo Trace or Willer will or 12? To kind of fuel the more premium products like v tak and Pappy, do you think that you know, I mean, most of the most of what they do is they come out with a a lower version of everything that you get stack Junior, you gotta go rare, and then you get the big boys on top. But I know it seems like there’s more like 12 year, it’s I think it’s sometimes easier to get a van Winkle 12 than it is a well or 12 zalando

46:12
you know, well, I think that’s this is also just the the rise and the rise of bourbon and the amount of people that are looking forward to I mean, that’s we say it’s it’s hard. It’s it’s not because yes, I still think there’s I would honestly, probably guess that there’s probably they’re pushing out more product now than they ever have. But it seems still scares to us, because there’s still more people now that are looking for it.

46:36
It’s I’ll put on their hat for a second. They have everybody in the world wants them. How do you how do you decide? What market gets what?

46:47
Yeah, I mean, that’s that’s it’s definitely a tough call. Because you’ve gotta you gotta take one out of your your your playbook here is is who’s been with us for the longest time who are the most loyal customers? Who are the ones with the biggest pockets right now that are really want us? I mean, Money Talks, like let’s not be Bernie lovers always said it the best. This is not the bourbon charities the bourbon business. Yeah. And so who’s got who’s got money? money’s gonna talk. And if, if by some chance and Ryan, we know, we’ve looked at this when we were opening up distribution for pursuit series, and we’re like, oh, what state should we go for? And he did a trip down to Texas. And really, I

47:23
always forget that you to like on a brand. Like we’re having this conversation. I’m like, wait, you guys hate your customers.

47:30
We listened to our customer feedback. We listened and we go, we go to a snail’s pace. But I mean, but but the part was, you know, he said, like, let’s look at Texas. And you look at Texas, and he came back from a trip. He was like, Kenny, this is this is so smart. Like why not? There’s like, there are more people in the city of Dallas than there are in the state of Kentucky three times as many people in the city of Dallas as there is in the whole state of Kentucky. And then you got states or cities like Houston, San Antonio Austin, and you’re like, why would you know, any liquor company would be smart to in they’re thirsty. They’re thirsty for it, right? And it’s like, Okay, well, that’s that’s an easy target. So you go after the larger markets.

48:12
Dallas bourbon club, shout out to you boys. Yeah.

48:15
Peach MIT. Mm hmm. And so I mean, like, those are the those are the kind of three ways that I look at it. If I’m a if I’m a, you know, brand owner, and I want to figure out if I’ve got an allocated whiskey, how do I get into the hands of the people? That’s the that’s the way I’m going to go. Right. Do you have any kind of other thoughts on

48:32
I mean, just going back to what Fred said, like they’re trying to get into these new markets, and I think they’re trying to position themselves because they’re, they’re all pumping out a ton of juice. So when the product finally becomes of age, they don’t they have us as customers already. So it’s like, we need to go promoted other places. So when we do have this stock available, we can spread it out everywhere, not in whereas if they just focused on us bourbon, consumers are going to have a whiskey glut.

48:59
Well, they want to find new consumers too. Yeah. I mean, that’s what I mean. Yeah, absolutely. We can’t keep selling it to the same three guys here that have more bottles, and they can drink for the rest of their life. Right? They want to find new customers. And that’s Yeah, that’s really helpful.

49:11
Guys, that’s what it comes down to. And you know, what, I saw that in the magazine business, you know, like, one of the big reasons why I decided to go out on my own for with the magazine is because the magazines I was writing for, were pursuing new audiences that would require me to be writing about cocktails, and you know, and not the stories that I wanted to tell. And so anytime you anytime you, ESPN did this to ESPN is inserted VH one and MTV. Anytime you water down, like what was the essence of what you were trying to do. And you’re trying to reach a new audience, you’re always going to like, appear, like you don’t care about your original customer. It’s just how it is you can grow

50:00
well, you cannot lose it. Well, to make it appeal to the mass market, you always have to like dumb it down to where like, because you have to make it appeal to everyone versus like a very small niche. And so that small niche that you appeal to at first, you kind of have to break away from them. Because the everyday consumer is not gonna be as passionate as that very small niches. Yeah, we’re fairly early adopters.

50:24
Yeah. But you know, people they got a pivot to right now just think of MTV, like, I remember the last time I watched a music video on TV, but if I watch a music video, it’s usually on YouTube, right? There’s a new platform that takes over and takes care of that. But YouTube’s a multi dimensional platform for all that kind of stuff. But you know, I kind of want to

50:40
talk about bourbon pursuit. Absolutely.

50:42
Absolutely. We will never done down

50:46
in Minnick media while we keep doing the shout outs here. Yeah. So let’s, let’s talk about two more brands. While we kind of wrap this up a little bit. You know, there’s there’s one brand that comes to mind. You know, we talked about old forester birthday bourbon, but brown Forman, I think they do an aggressive audible job of really not pissing off the consumer base, you know, they’ve got products that are continually coming out at aggressive price points. And, and really, they’ve only got it. Should I say, besides all four, it’s a birthday bourbon, and they get king in Kentucky, they don’t have a whole lot of stuff. That is the super premium, highly allocated stuff. And so they are continually trying to just make everyday solid products.

51:23
Yeah, I mean, the the old forester extensions, like great, everyday like, drinker. I mean, the bottom bond, the 86. I mean, those are like, I could drink the right, yes, they just came out well, but I mean, like these prohibition series, I mean, like the 1910, like, in 1920, just always, consistently blow my socks off. Every time I drink. I’m like, this is really good at 50 to 60. Buck. And one thing, one thing that

51:50
Chris Morris did with the prohibition series, is when they when they are know, when they did the wheat whiskey release with Woodford, you know, they it wasn’t prohibition series was with Woodford, they sent the release out and said, We have now released every single type of whiskey that was allotted in the 1935 federal alcohol administration act, and I was just like, oh my god. And I’m like, there’s probably not another person in the world who gave that we should talk about that. But I was like, I was like, the fact that you know, and they’re released, they’re dropping, like, one of the greatest, like legal documents I’ve ever read. And I was like, I was like, I can’t kid in the candy store with that press release. I didn’t publish it, but I was, you know, it was very well done. And that the thing about brown Forman is that they overly think, you know, so while they while they are doing a lot of this stuff, I also think they’ve been kind of left behind in a lot of these conversations of like, you know, you just mentioned you don’t have a lot of allocated stuff. You know, so in like, if you are if you’re if you’re thinking about it, like is that not a good thing? I mean, because now you know, heaven hills got a lot of highly allocated stuff for roses highly Alec a lot of highly allocated stuff, and so does Buffalo Trace. And I don’t see why, you know, brown Forman doesn’t because their whiskey out of the barrel is incredible.

53:18
And we think it’s because they promoted like Woodford so hard out the gate versus and kind of left old fo just a winner and then now it’s kind of regain popularity. I think old foresters coming back hard.

53:30
Yeah, I birthday bourbon is highly allocated, by the way. It’s very, very much is it but I look at

53:35
at what the resurgence of old forester as the same resurgence we see with 1792, right? Like, how many people were really like gung ho talk about 1792. and still they started coming off with all these extensions of their bottle and bond. Yeah, foolproof. Sweet. Hi, Robert. It’s a

53:52
very interesting comparison because they have they both have a very unique note in there that I detect in both of them. No, bananas. Yeah, banana. No. You have to also remember that the beast of brown Forman is the world’s number one whiskey and jack daniels. And I tell you what, some of the barrel proof stuff coming out of jack daniels right now. It’s fantastic. It’s some of the best whiskey you can find. And so, you know, I think what they what brown Forman does really, really well, is that 30 to $50 product, they do a great job with that. And I know a lot of people don’t are not Woodford fans. But that’s a lot of people’s favorite bourbon. Oh, yeah. I mean, I’ve been I’ve been on airplanes where I’ve seen ladies yell at someone sitting next to them for pouring coke with Woodford like How dare you pour Coke? bourbon

54:46
airport. A lot of bourbon consumers that aren’t whiskey geeks like Woodford is their premium go to you know, it’s like I’m always amazed, not amazed because it is great juice. But it’s like you forget that that it is like yeah, the common marketplace that sir like premium go to.

55:00
Alright, so one last gripe before we kind of close this out. And that’s one thing that I’ve talked about at the top of the show. And that’s the allocations of barrel pics that used to go to bourbon societies and used to go to people, charities, charities, bodies, everybody that was doing them early on. And now it’s like that, sorry, you’re not selling enough. And this is we’re seeing this at four roses. We’re seeing this at wild turkey. And so kind of talk about really, what is the effect of, kind of, from a if you’re the manufacturer? Or if you’re the the end consumer? Like, do you hate the brand more now? Like do you start to look at other places? I mean, because we’re good friends with read an emerald from 1789 be, you know, they they said that their allocations are gone from wild turkey and other places like that, where they used to go and just go in and do barrel pics all the time. And now they’re looking at other places. They’re looking at wilderness trail they’re looking at

55:52
Yeah, just it’s opened up an opportunity for these like new players in the game to like, kind of like we’ve gone barrel pics so many places, but like you’re not, you’re treated more like royalty, when you go to like new roof or wilderness trails, or Willits, or somewhere, whereas the other ones are like, how can we get them in and out of here as fast as possible? It’s clockwork to them. Yeah, it’s like, we’re going to roll out three barrels, and you have 15 minutes to taste each and then we’re gonna go through this and this and get out now. So

56:22
Well, I mean, I still enjoy roses experience and stuff like that I still enjoy the experiences. I mean, when you go to wild turkey, you’re there with Eddie and and, you know, you know, it’s not Eddie making these decisions, right. You know, this this is definitely higher

56:35
up and then I also I also think that Eddie would make those decisions if he had to, you know, that’s something we have to always remember that they’re kind of protected like that we always want to give like the distillers a break, but they are you know, they have people there kind of around them to protect them and make them continue to look like the good guy, but don’t think for a second that they’re not in those rooms having conversations and saying like given their input. Yeah, well, we’re about to lose our stock, you know, for 2025 if we keep doing these barrel pics, so they’re looking out for the long term and healthiness of their brands and that and that’s what I’m like a cop when they’re around us,

57:11
then that’s exactly

57:12
right. I do not be fooled by that. The niceties from the distillers leave me like someone like Bo Backman. It’s as direct. Everybody hates that guy because he’s the keeper of the barrels. But he’s he’s going off of what someone else tells him, you know, and he’s got the allocation.

57:30
Yeah. And I’m sure if they if they had unlimited barrel supply, they’d love to keep doing it. Right. I mean, I think I think that’s one thing that people don’t understand. I don’t know if they would they probably

57:40
it’s like thing is is a inefficient process. And it’s a low margin. Feeling personally,

57:43
are you feeling cut off?

57:45
No, I don’t think I’m feeling personally cut off. I think it’s Oh, let’s let’s try harder than us.

57:50
It’s harder for us to go to So you mentioned 1789 be Let’s mention I I’m a part of a charity that got cut off. what’s what’s another group that you know of that got cut off? I know about two retailers that got cut out of Wild Turkey? Well, yeah,

58:08
there’s there’s it’s all around, right. I mean, it’s there’s definitely

58:12
we don’t cross the board. We don’t see a

58:16
you know, a commonality other than that. They’re small. This place isn’t getting cut off. MGM and Las Vegas isn’t getting cut off. And total wine, liquor barn, they’re not getting cut off. So it goes back to this this conversation of like, Who’s spending the most money? And, you know, I think it’s short sighted to cut out 1789 and you know, people like that, that have incredible connections within the bourbon world.

58:46
And we’re the one of the pioneers of actually doing some of this

58:49
stuff. I don’t I don’t think they cut out some of

58:51
these gaps in a lot of money to charities, like a lot of good comes out of these.

58:55
But there’s also been some charities that have been debunked. Right, you know, so you got to remember that to to just like we’ve seen with the counterfeit, they’re always fuck wads that are going to take advantage of the the scenario the situation sounds like that.

59:07
Yes, absolutely. So I think we’re going to go ahead and wrap that one up. Because you know, we’ve, we put some people under fire here, we make sure everybody knows that. If you’re brand new, listen to this. We still love every single one of you. We still love the product you’re putting out

59:20
we went talk about you if we didn’t care. Exactly. I’m

59:23
on the show and join us.

59:24
Yeah, we’re looking out for you. We want

59:26
what’s best for you actually, they’re not looking out for you. And not

59:29
well, we’re looking at right

59:32
now they got a brand they’re trying to knock you down. So their brand goes up. You don’t have

59:35
to worry about

59:37
our toy 24 barrels a year, I think is like we don’t we’re

59:40
not gonna we’re not gonna be stepping on any toes anytime soon. That’s for sure.

59:44
Well, you know what I would, you know, I’ll talk to you about this off the air. I’ll bring this up. Sorry.

59:47
It’s okay. So, you know, it was like I said, just make sure that you do have a pretty thick skin if you’re listening this from brand, because we do We love you. We love having all the personalities and people behind the brands on the show. You know, we do

1:00:00
kind of look at this from, you know, we see what happens in the Facebook groups and Reddit and everything like that when people are writing blog posts of saying like, oh, like we don’t like you anymore. So we’re just trying to look at this from the consumer perspective. Don’t shoot the messenger. Yeah, exactly. So I will. I will say, though, that I’ve said this for more than a decade. Don’t forget the customers who brought you to the dance. That’s it. Absolutely. So thank you everybody, for listening. We hope you enjoyed this episode we recorded at Hotel distil hotel is still is located in downtown Louisville here on whiskey row. And for those of thirst new experiences, you should come check it out. It’s a home for the connoisseurs of the finest comforts and gracious service. It’s a space where you’re going to pass through historic risk row facade and joy, a true and authentic global destination. You can book your experience for it yourself at Hoteldistil.com and it’s set to open here on November 1 of 2019. So fellows, thank you once again for joining us.

1:01:00
show. Yeah, and we’ll have everybody back. Next week. Rock and Roll

Transcribed by https://otter.ai