This episode is a twofer. You get the Van Winkle Family and the Bourbon Community Roundtable all in one which took place at Bourbon & Beyond 2019. Julian gives history about the brand and the timeline of when it became a part of the Sazerac portfolio. One of Julian’s daughters talks about the emergence of Pappy & Co and how she is more of a tequila person and never really gets to drink any of the family bourbon. Preston talks about their involvement with crack down of the secondary market groups as a counterfeiting measurement. Fred keeps lots of good questions rolling along that you all will find interesting. The 2nd half of the podcast is a live recording of the bourbon community roundtable as we share thoughts on the festival, the news that broke the evening prior, and what we recommend for those who can’t get Pappy. There’s almost too much going on, but it’s timely and full of good info you all will enjoy.

Show Notes:

• This week’s Above the Char with Fred Minnick talks about Bourbon and Beyond.
• What was it like when your dad was trying to sell whiskey when no one was interested?
• Did you ever sneak in and steal some whiskey from your dad?
• What was it like for bourbon in the 1980s?
• How did you barter with whiskey?
• Were you ever worried that you would have to close the company?
• When you were a child, did you feel the stress your dad was experiencing?
• Tell us about the moment you realized you wouldn’t have to shut down.
• What was the thinking behind partnering with Buffalo Trace?
• What do you think about your haters?
• What is the relationship with Buffalo Trace like?
• Does Preston have the same palette as Julian?
• What’s your favorite expression?
• Is it ok to drink Pappy 23 with coke?
• What does the future look like for the brand?
• Do you plan on increasing the price?
• What steps have you taken to curb the secondary market?
• What would happen if you were in the same room as an alleged counterfeiter?
• What did you learn from the sessions so far at Bourbon and Beyond?
• Thoughts on the Van Winkle session.
• Who caught up with Marianne Eaves?
• If you can’t get Pappy, what do you recommend?

Transcription:

0:00
Everybody Are you interested in looking at the distilling process and pairing that with key business knowledge such as finance, marketing and operations, then you should check out the online distilled spirits business certificate from the University of Louisville. It’s an online program. It can be completed in as little as 15 weeks. It’s taught by both of you have all business faculty and corporate fellows. So you’re getting real experience from real experts at the most renowned distilleries, companies and startups in the distilling industry. all that’s required is a bachelor’s degree, go to U of l.me. Slash pursue spirits. So Julian, after the seminar was over, he pulled out a pot big friggin pocket knife on stage and started cutting the labels. He’s like, this is how he presented. I was like, How the hell did you get that through security?

0:59
Hey, everyone is

1:00
It’s Episode 220 of bourbon pursuit. I’m one of your host Kenny. And last weekend at bourbon and beyond, it was nothing short of incredible. We can’t say thank you enough to everyone that came up and said hi to us and join us during our sessions. We met folks from bourbon societies from in shape coming from Chicago and St. Louis and everywhere in between. and if you haven’t done so yet, please go check out our Instagram page as well as bourbon and beyond official Instagram to see all the awesome pictures. I hope you feel some photo and you will be there next year. And another huge shout out to Fred Minnick for including us as a regular part of the bourbon programming. It was an awesome experience. And anybody that has been there will tell you, it was one for the record books. All right, it’s news time. So let’s dig into this. Last week, we announced the press release for the 2019 Buffalo Trace antique collection on our Facebook page. It’s one of the most highly anticipated releases that are coming out from the

2:00
all season amongst our enthusiasm. Maybe it’s also one of the most frustrating but hats off the soundtrack for always keeping a level head and doing their best to price these at a $99 MSRP. For the past few years, however, odds are, it’s gonna be really hard to find that in most retail locations. We will be getting our sample soon and we’ll be releasing a five minute whiskey quickie when we get it recorded as soon as we can. New riff is releasing a new heirloom rye called Bow Bow rye. This was distilled in June of 2015 and will be four years old and bottled at 100 proof without chill filtration. That low rye is one of the first specialties New Roof made back in 2015. Their corn farmer Charles fog had been grilling heirloom rye on his family farm for many years. He’s chosen a variety of was called Bow Bow rides and heirloom grain which dates back to the 1940s as a rye variety that’s popular in Indiana. He offered it to new riff and they distilled it into rye whiskey probably the first time in

3:00
decades that Bow Bow has been made into whiskey. And quite surely the only example on the market today, Bow Bow grain is a little smaller than modern varieties with a lower output per acre of planting. So there’s just a little bit more tidbit or fact about what is Bow Bow arrived. This will have a suggested retail price of 4999. As a side note, I was actually able to sample this when we recorded a podcast with Ken Lewis of new riff a few months ago and I’m telling you, it’s going to be worth getting a bottle very quality ride. Kentucky out is going to be releasing batch nine and October. The latest introduction from the Wise Man’s bourbon is the boldest highest proof addition to date from Master Blender Dixon Desmond, it’s coming in at 127.6 proof. This release is made with four different disciplines from four different mash bills including a 15 year old, two different lots of 14 year olds, a 12 year old, a seven year old and a six year old

4:00
lid, Kentucky albertan. batch nine will be releasing 10,314 bottles into 42 US states with a suggested retail price of $299 and 99 cents. Alright, so today’s episode, it’s got a lot of things wrapped up in one. This is the first release of two of the bourbon seminars that took place during bourbon and beyond. It’s also the first time that we’ve had the Van Winkle family on the show before. Julian gives some history into the brand about where they were sourcing and the timeline of when it all became part of the Aztec portfolio as well. Then some of the juicy details start emerging. One of Julian’s daughters talks about the emergence of Pappy and CO and how she is more of a tequila person and never really gets to drink any of the family bourbon. Then Preston talks about their involvement with the crackdown on the secondary market Facebook groups, which he implied that was really there as a counterfeit money.

5:00
During now, the whole time, Fred keeps a lot of good questions rolling that you’re going to find very interesting here. And the second half of this podcast is a live recording that we did at Burton beyond on stage of the Community Roundtable, we share our thoughts on the festival and what we loved about it, as well as the news that broke the evening prior. There’s almost too much going on, but it’s timely and chock full of good nuggets that you’re going to enjoy. Now, I will be the first to admit that the audio experience here is probably not going to be the best as everyone on stage was holding a handheld microphone and when that happens, you know, it’s going to be bumping into things. You’re gonna have some sound bleed that was coming from the other stages. And when we were recording this, it was feeding off of a soundboard so we could just get the best as that we could. So sorry in advance that, you know, really, we hope that the effort that we want to actually bring this to you is worth it as well. And of course since we weren’t always

6:00
too, there’s not going to be any video available as a part of this as well. So you’ll be able to just do a lot of listening. So if you’re driving, then continue as normal or walking or working out or whatever it is. But if you’re watching this on YouTube or Facebook will get you next time, I promise. All right, now let’s dive in. We’ve got Joe over a barrel bourbon, and then you’ve got Fred Minnick with above the jar.

6:23
Hi, this is Joe from barrell craft spirits. We work with distilleries from all over the world to source and blend the best ingredients into America’s most curious cask strength whiskies. Find out more at barrell bourbon com. I’m Fred Minnick, and this is above the char. This past weekend was the conclusion of my Super Bowl. bourbon and beyond. Leon bridges Alison Krauss ZZ Top Foo Fighters john Fogarty. Zac Brown band. Oh my gosh, there were so many great headliners, including Robert Plant himself from Led Zeppelin.

7:00
He didn’t just come out playing his stuff from his bluegrass days he was singing Led Zeppelin, bourbon and beyond was so amazing. And I am honored to be its curator and a co founder in the festival. My baby is the Kentucky gold stage. And what happened on the bourbon workshops is absolutely historic. You had Jordan from breaking bourbon. You’ve had Blake from bourbon or Kenny and Ryan were up there. Carla Carlton, the managing editor for bourbon plus, Susan regular Fon Weaver, Peggy know Stephens on and on and on. So many wonderful talented bourbon people were on that stage dropping knowledge and it was just fantastic. The crowds were packed, you could not get a place to get a tasting and people were just standing way in the back by the gates just listening to people talk about bourbon. This was unprecedented even in year

8:00
past we didn’t draw these kinds of crowds around the bourbon workshops. And if you were one of those people, and you were there listening to the Van Winkle talk about their family heritage, you learn something so, so breaking for like our little world, this little bubble that we call bourbon. And that was when President Van Winkle said that his family worked with Facebook legally to take down the secondary markets. I was stunned by it. But I want to give you some context into this whole format of the festival. That Kentucky gold stage is to the left and about a half a football field to three quarters of football field away from our about a football field away from the main stages and while we are talking musicians are playing so their sound bleed into us now, because the panelists have their are speaking into the microphone. The people in the audience can

9:00
Hear them. But on the stage, we often depending on the musician, we can hear more of the music than some of the panelists who are left or right. And also, we were instructed by our stage manager to really get into the microphone and not yell, but speak very thoroughly and deeply. So the recording you’re about to hear has, it sounds much, much different than what it was like for me on stage. So I was instructed to speak loudly into the microphone. And so it’s going to sound like I’m screaming a little bit, but really, I’m talking to the crowd, not necessarily speaking to be recorded. So that over excitement, that’s a stage voice that’s that’s kind of my way to speak to the crowd. And the van winkles, you know, they’re also speaking a little louder, but they’re not as loud as me. So as you will soon learn, so that this was recorded by bourbon pursuit at

10:00
bourbon and beyond festival and it’s definitely a voice I would not use for normal recording. With that said, I have been working with the van winkles for two years to get them on stage bourbon and beyond. And last year we got rained out so they couldn’t come on. This year they donated three bottles of Pappy Van Winkle, and told us a lot about their struggles coming through through the bourbon business and how he almost gave it up. But it wasn’t until Preston Van Winkle started talking about how he feels about the secondary market and the counterfeiters and the flippers that my jaw just dropped. I was not expecting that on the stage, not at all. So sit back, enjoy and listen and just know that this was this was recorded around a couple thousand people. And that’s this week’s above the char. Hey, if you have an idea for above the char hit me up on Twitter or Instagram at Frederick

11:00
Nick again at Fred MC. Until next week, cheers.

11:07
Hey guys, my name is Jackie psych and I’m the master taster for old forester. And my dear friend Fred medic has actually been so nice to let me MC this stage for earning beyond this year and he’s a man who has done so much for this bourbon industry. And he really is shaping how we are experiencing bourbon today, obviously look at all of us here together. But yet for Fred Mac.

11:32
And I mean, he’s the only one that wears the mascot when it’s 100 degrees outside. So you know, just for that alone, you deserve an applause Thank you very much just because I have a very ugly neck.

11:44
Well, Jackie, I am so excited about this particular seminar. Look at all the people who are here to get to hear the story about Pappy Van Winkle. All right. Joining me on the stage Carrie. greener Carrie. Come on.

12:00
Beco the son of Julian Van Winkle, her brother Preston Van Winkle. He’s the guy who gets all the hate emails whenever somebody can’t get happy. And the man, the myth, the legend, Julian Van Winkle, who brought his grandfather’s name back, ladies and gentlemen, I want to introduce you to one of the greatest pallets of the 20th century, Julian Van Winkle. So Van Winkle, thank you very much for taking the stage with me at bourbon and beyond. And I met you backstage, and I was so disappointed in all of you 90 degrees for it. Were they drinking bourbon? Know where they drinking water know where they drinking Irish Whiskey scotch, Brandy or a beer know? What? What were they drinking vodka.

12:59
It’s hot.

13:01
Julian, if Pappy had known that his grandson and great grandson and great granddaughter were drinking vodka, before they were going on the stage to talk about their family legacy, what do you think he would say? Smart, smart guy, hey,

13:20
I’m not a I’m a when I when I take a drink, I like a lot of flow into my throat when it’s hot. So if I did that with bourbon or some other brown spirit, it would be an ugly afternoon or ugly evening. So, vodka is a little kinder to the brain than some of the other whiskey. So. All right, well, the bottle has gotten too much stage time as it is. Exactly. So let’s move on. I want to talk about what it was like. what it was like growing up in the van Winkle household because your dad was out trying to promote American whiskey. When nobody wanted to drink it. What was it like seeing your dad out on the on the

14:00
pavement trying to sell whiskey. Well, it wasn’t easy at all actually looking back it’s he has scars on his head in

14:10
warehouses, right. Yeah from warehouses. So when we were little, you know, he’d leave really early in the morning he was into distilling the bourbon down to Lawrenceburg, Kentucky. And so

14:21
it was not anything pretty what you might imagine it was no Camelot from back at the stairwell or days it was full on grunt work. And, yeah, he would sprained his ankle and he would leave early and come home late and luckily on the weekends, we would go down there to learn to work with him. So for us, it was an amazing childhood. He wasn’t gone all the time, because luckily we were able to be there with him and enjoy that. The bottling plant and it’s right on a creek in Lawrenceburg, Kentucky. It was like a dilapidated building, but he was just working hard all day every day making it work, and we were there playing

15:00
Along with them so

15:01
now Preston,

15:04
I know you pretty well. Did you ever sneak in there and and steal a little whiskey from your dad when you were growing up?

15:12
Steal whiskey like from the liquor cabinet or from the bottling Hall. So there are multiple places you were stealing whiskey.

15:22
Actually, by the time I was able to appreciate it

15:29
I was it was

15:33
there wasn’t really anything to steal. It was under lock and key pretty well and I was working for dad so

15:41
but I do remember

15:44
I do remember pinch in a bottle here. There are some some old stuff that was it wasn’t anything good. It was stuff that was ultimately sold in Japan because that was the only place you could get rid of it.

16:00
$5,000 on the secondary market, there’s none of it left. Thankfully,

16:05
we had our family had nothing to do with the distillation of that particular product but the labels were popping off of the bottles and they had been in the in the warehouse for a good many years. But in terms of stealing booze from dad and my sisters were not quite as good at it. Oh, frozen bottles of vodka in the freezer.

16:30
Okay, all right, let’s all right, let’s just go ahead and have Fred Yeah, I gotta say, it’s true. That’s fair. We drink bourbon if it was a cool September day, but it’s just not that yet. So all right. Okay. All right. So Julian, did you ever have you you were on the road? A lot trying to make

16:51
Pappy Van Winkle or old Rip Van Winkle work. What was it like?

16:57
What was it like and bourbon and the

17:00
1980s and 1990s when nobody wanted it

17:05
well, it was, it was a struggle. My dad,

17:09
of course started working for him in 1977. And

17:13
at that point,

17:15
the bourbon part was not popular. So all the distilleries put their product in the Cantor’s

17:21
and some ugly some fantastic but that’s what it took with to sell the whiskey was put it in a figurine or an apothecary bottle or something. So that was the hard sell is to get a

17:34
liquor store and prospect Kentucky or wherever to pay

17:40
eight bucks wholesale for a bottle of whiskey back then which would sell for 12 or 15 maybe so that was the hard part and to sell a bottle of whiskey. We just RO written Van Winkle was next to impossible but it was bottle bottle and so forth. So it was a it was it was quite something it was it was an uphill battle.

18:00
To say the least. Now you also, you also use your whiskey as currency like you would you would barter with it, you would trade a couple bottles or a case for a magazine advertisement. And those days. Yes, we fellow that we end up meeting through the horse business and Lexington did some advertising was from New York.

18:21
He came down to this dairy and found out about her whiskey because his customer who was a horse farm owner, enjoyed the whiskey and found out about it. And he actually, he bought a case from the distillery and took a case of whiskey with him on the airplane and put it in the overhead. So that was hilarious.

18:40
But we did barter for advertising because I didn’t have any money to pay for advertising. So we did barter, which was it worked. It was all I gotta say, what would you say? Would you say that there was ever a moment that you were in jeopardy of closing the company. I would say that what happened about once a month.

19:00
Wow, seriously, I’m not being facetious. I would say that

19:05
the timing was perfect on this.

19:08
But

19:09
it was I would, I was buying whiskey by the barrel. And occasionally the distilleries would turn, would change their mind and not sell me any barrels. And I was buying whiskey from several different distilleries as many distilleries did. Back then, there was a lot of whiskey being traded around. The label that you bought under that distillery was not necessarily from that the story. And that still happens today, obviously, too, but I did a lot of

19:36
got nixed on buying barrels. So I was turned down and I thought, well, this is it. I’m done here, but it’s the only thing I knew how to do.

19:45
My dad wanted me to work for a banker or sell insurance or something. And I said, Well, that’s no fun. I’m just gonna stick with this. And it was more tenacity than anything because I had no other choice and just stuck with it. They look obviously it kind of worked out.

20:00
What What do you all think? Are you all glad that he stuck with it?

20:05
Now I think I am.

20:09
President definitely is. Did you as a child, did you feel that stress that your father was going through?

20:20
That’s hard to say.

20:22
I could tell that he was overworked a lot of times. But at the same time, even with the early mornings and late nights, he usually made it home for dinner.

20:37
A lot of times with

20:39
a sack of sliders or

20:43
box up

20:45
club sandwiches from men’s cafe down on story Avenue,

20:50
but usually made it home for dinner. So I guess that felt the stress so much because when we go down and help them in the bottling Hall, it was

21:00
It was fun. He made it fun. We helped fill bottles, put labels on. I remember one day filling like 1000 Statue of Liberty 50 ml decanters

21:13
with a soda fountain gun with my cousins. So the stress was kind of taken out of it and he always made time for

21:24
going to Louisville Redbirds games and Louisville Thunder games and whatever the

21:30
the hockey team the

21:33
river frogs, so we always had

21:37
guys made time for us as kids. So I don’t know that I felt the stress. I feel like the only time I really realized that things were getting tough was when a

21:50
group of Japanese buyers came over. And like if they didn’t have a good time, that was it like that could have been a while to the

22:00
road but they had a great time we took them and play golf i i caddied for them. And it was

22:07
one of the most fun funniest experiences of my life but

22:13
that was probably the only time that I I really recognized that things could be a little bit you know, on thin ice. So Carrie Did you feel like your dad ever brought the work problems home? No. And I think I we actually learned that from him. It’s like you just work hard Put your head down during the day and then you try to cut it off at night and yeah, so we just knew he worked hard, but did not feel that like Preston said he was he was there the night and on the weekends and I never never felt anything like that.

22:50
I think that’s a testament to you, Julian. I admit I bring work home. I it’s hard. It’s really really hard. I think to when you’re just when you don’t have

23:00
Any other way of being and it’s all you know that you don’t really have any other way of doing it. So it was the only way you knew how and luckily it was

23:10
being a dad and being

23:13
a great family member and just working hard and, like all the whole theme here for me and all this is like it’s all you know, it’s all you do, and when you work hard, and you just do what’s right and real, it all worked out.

23:27
Now Carrie is one of three she is a triplet. And I’ve actually never asked

23:36
I’ve never asked Julian This Has there ever been a moment with your triplets? That you miss just one of them for the other?

23:45
Mostly when they’re walking down the hall from the back, I would always say you know, carry Lewisham or whatever and it would be the other one because from the front, that’s I’ve known him since day one. It’s a little easier, but I did have mistaken Amen.

24:01
And then on the phone up the phone conversation especially you know the last several years carry lives in Idaho and everybody lives here now but but they will call up and I think I’m talking to Louise and it’s scary or something. So it’s, it’s, it is a little confusing we just a real quick story went to Target one day and they were really small and I’m checking out and so fellas checking me out going, is that three twins

24:27
because it’s hard to describe, you know what you’re looking at? Because triplets are a little different than twin lot of twins. But uh, we did get them confused. We had a magic marker on on one of the girls when they were first born on their heels. Not to mention he was 30 and he had four children. He had Preston and then within a year and a half he had three more and looking back at age 30 enough to see what he was able to do with his career and raise children and do it so gracefully. Please give your mother some credit for the raising

25:00
mature. Yeah, thank God he had her as a god, she should have come so she could have heard that. But she’s babysitting some grandchildren. Yeah. You just mentioned that you were on the verge of closing your company.

25:14
And then something happened in the 1990s. You got you got a perfect score.

25:21
And everybody wanted Pappy, tell me about that. That big moment of when when you kind of turn the corner when you knew that you wouldn’t have to close your doors. Tell me about that. Julian.

25:34
Well, the story was we sent our distributor in Chicago, unbeknownst to me sent a sample to the beverage tasting Institute for the beverage taste, the world beverage tasting, what they call it the beverage tasting Institute, world, world whiskey competition or something and we got a 99 and they publish that in the one in a Wired magazine called the wine enthusiast and

26:00
got out of the trade and then our phone started ringing. And that was really kind of the kickoff of I mean, you all know wine vodka, whiskey, anything. When it gets a good rating you want to you want it even though it has you have no idea if you like it or not because that guy over there might like something and that guy over there might like something and they’re completely different tasting, but we got lucky and

26:24
got some publicity and that’s kind of when it started so the phone started ringing and then it kind of not really took off but that was the that was the the the genesis of this whole thing I think when that when that was which was pure luck really as far as getting in that tasting and a lot of this is luck, believe me. And when what was what was the move over when you when you chose to partner with Buffalo Trace. What was your thinking behind going to partner with Buffalo Trace?

26:57
Well, they actually knocked on my door a year before

27:00
We hooked up and bought it because they own they own one of our brands WL well or was my granddad used to work for Mr. Weller here in Louisville. And the audio head on the brands, they ran all those brands brands into the brand, pretty much because they didn’t sell well for them. So they sold them all off and Buffalo Trace bought WL Weller, and they had had it since 1999. So 2001 they asked me to do a joint venture with them. And I wasn’t interested because I’ve been working by myself for myself except for my son for a long time. So

27:35
it was foreign to me to work with anybody for anybody and not especially for anybody.

27:41
But I finally smartened up after a little discussions with them, and I knew that I wasn’t making whiskey for the future. I was buying aged bourbon, which was available back then but down the road. It’s the way you have to think in the bourbon market. Our business plan is 23 years long. I don’t know what you all

28:00
Do but we have the longest business plan and next next to a lumber person who grows an 80 year old white oak tree, it’s pretty incredible. So I needed future whiskey to put down for the future. So that’s why mainly we hooked up with them. Plus they were making Weller and same formula as ours, which was still our my grandfather’s formula. So it was a it was a it was a great moment so it and it’s been a great relationship and and there you know with their soon as we hooked up with them the marketing and the sales force and the promotion. That’s, you know, it’s a little bit overdone, I guess, because we really don’t need to market this brand. But

28:40
we did back in the day and it’s it’s taken off and

28:45
it’s it’s it’s been incredible. It really has but you know No, Sazerac Buffalo Trace has really been a big part of it. And it doesn’t hurt that Harlan weeklies the best distiller of American whiskey. Now he’s pretty good. He’s won a lot of awards.

29:00
person wins a lot of awards. Yeah, he runs he runs a tight ship he’s actually a real master distiller you know? Yes it’s not it’s not it’s not the title that was given to him easily now I’m not a marketer. So one of the things with with with the rise of Pappy and everybody you know standing in long lines there’s there’s there’s been a little bit of vitriolic kind of nature come your way and carry you and I have talked about this sometimes. How does that how does that make you feel when you see like people lamenting about the fact they can’t get a glass of Pappy or you know they’re throwing out some kind of crazy conspiracy theory don’t get started. Well, that’s why we’re here. I’m here to get you started. Easy carry holder. Hold your lesson. I don’t work for the distillery just so you don’t

29:55
notice, I asked Carrie this question.

29:59
Well, I’ll just say

30:00
I have my own company that I started six years ago with my sister’s Pappy and Company, which is the merchandise side of our of our business. And so we get a lot of inquiries, just just because we’re obviously within the family realm of business. And so there’s a lot of haters out there, and it’s very easy to respond to those haters. And my, what I say is that, you know, I think when people understand the nature of the business and the nature of our brand, it becomes very clear that, you know, I would love for you to be an appreciator and respect your of the brand and understand it. And so I think the easiest thing to tell people is that if you think about, you know, the youngest age that we bottle is 10 years and it goes up to 23 years so not many other people have to, to plan ahead in that kind of

30:54
increments. So when I think they realized that this is not an intentional thing that we

31:00
Done, we haven’t intentionally held back product to increase demand we have not worked with or they have not worked with a marketing team to create anything. It’s literally creating a product that you believe in and the rest happens naturally and organically. So we’re no cold brand that we tried to create. It’s literally like we’ve said from the very beginning putting your head down and working and so when people really understand that and see that it’s nothing about marketing, you know, the world we live in is so faithful of just creating a brand and creating this fake story behind it and going out there and selling it. It’s like, we are caught up in that and so I can understand that maybe if you don’t know enough about the brand that that’s your first instinct is to completely judge and say oh, it’s, you know, there, it’s intentional and you learn a little bit more. It’s very easy to then be appreciator of the brand. Now Preston, you actually deal with the haters on a regular basis. What’s it like daily

31:59
there

32:00
There are a lot of misconceptions with our brands. There’s a lot of

32:06
there are a lot of people that I guess are,

32:09
for lack of a better term, but hurt that they can’t get our product. So

32:14
they would rather spew hatred than just accept the reality that this has happened organically. It’s not

32:23
it’s it wasn’t an intentional thing that we’ve created. Artificial demand people accuse of accuse us of creating artificial demand to increase prices will. We’re not the ones benefiting from these crazy aftermarket prices. It’s the retailers that are benefiting it’s the the people that are illegally buying and selling via Craigslist and Facebook and stuff that are benefiting it’s not us. And it would be asinine to hold that product

32:57
that we could profit from selling

33:00
In order to, again artificially create demand, it’s just it is what it is. We’re not making chairs or fidget spinners. We’re making 10 to 23 year old bourbon. So it takes time. Nobody could have anticipated the explosion and demand for for bourbon in general, but especially premium Bourbons and our Bourbons, especially

33:25
1520 years ago, we would have mattered from a production standpoint. So we basically got caught with our pants down. So we can’t, we can’t catch up instantly. We’re we are trying to catch up we’ve got more 1012 and 15 year old than we’ve ever had, but it’s still a drop in the bucket compared to demand. Demand is going up like this while supply is kind of ratcheting up Yeah, at a slower pace and we are increasing production every year, but we’re doing so at a

34:01
What you would what most would consider a pretty conservative rate, because of this whole thing goes to put if this whole bourbon boom goes bust, we don’t want to be sitting on top of a Laker whiskey we can’t sell we’ve been on that side of the coin. And that’s basically what forced my grandfather to sell oil or in the early 70s was nobody cared about bourbon at that point. So we don’t want to be on that side of the coin. And actually, Julian, your father gave an interview to the North Carolina newspaper in the 1970s saying that if you think you can, you can sell 5000 bottles, make 2000 if you think you could sell 10,000 make 5000 so it seems to be like very much ingrained in the DNA of the van winkles to make less than the demand is, it is it’s obviously when you’re when you grew up with something and that’s in the back of your head.

35:00
You know, Pappy always said fine bourbon profit. You know, that Yeah, yeah. But always find bourbon profit loss, whatever, but

35:10
you, I don’t care what you do and that’s, I can’t I gotta keep my mouth shut here a little bit but with any product if you make too much of it and the quality goes down

35:22
your your price that you’re going to get for it also goes down. And if you keep the quality up there and the quantity reasonable, I think your business plan is a lot better.

35:33
You know, we’re comfortable with the business we have. We don’t want to, we don’t have and it’s different. We don’t have stockholders behind us. You’re looking at the stockholders or some some of them right here in our company, all three or four or five or six of us.

35:49
It’s you, you, you know, you hit we don’t have anybody to answer to so that’s the problem with the big companies. They have to make money. Quality goes down. So that’s

36:00
And we’re not gonna, we’re not going to do that. So what is the what is the relationship with Buffalo Trace from a business perspective? Can they dictate to you your whiskey supply where you store your barrels? It’s complicated, but basically we we own the brand. We own 51% of our brands. So it’s a it’s a joint venture. So it’s all one big happy family. So if there’s big business decision to be made, we have the final word on it. So when they’re when they’re distilling the weighted bourbon recipe, is it Pappy Van Winkle day and they put it in there or is it all Weller and Pappy Van Winkle day and then you guys get barrels and you just choose where? How does that work? We production as we production and then within the Buffalo Trace campus, there are certain warehouses there are certain spots within certain warehouses that have shown over decades

36:55
that they produce the best

36:59
finished product

37:01
Especially at our age statements.

37:06
So we get first crack at the best of the best of the barrels. So when a barrel is produced at Buffalo Trace with the weeded recipe, it’s not earmark necessarily for Weller, or 10 year old rip or 15 year old Pappy or 23 year old Pappy or whatever. It’s more about where it ends up in a warehouse based on

37:28
space constraints and with they’re building two new warehouses a year for the next 10 years.

37:36
So the tune of about $1.2 billion. So so what I just heard there is that William William Murray, well, our cash drink was not good enough to be happy.

37:49
Not necessarily. No, that’s not what I heard. Okay, well, not necessarily.

37:55
There are guys giving me the evil eye. There are certainly barrels that we reject.

38:00
jack that on their own would be just fine. Yeah. But they’re just not up to our I don’t want to say standards. But our palates are very laser focused on

38:16
our products people have described both of us as having these amazing, amazing palettes but why we need to get involved. It’s it’s more that our palates are laser focused on

38:30
what we produce, and why we have what we like and what we like.

38:36
We’re very fortunate that other people seem to enjoy the same things that that we like. I do. I do believe that there is a there is a gift and the palette of being able to blend be able to mingle, two or three barrels or five barrels, whatever, to make a batch. A lot of people can pick a single barrel but to create like a batch. That’s again,

39:00
That’s a gift. Julian does Preston have the does he have the types of the same touches you he’s he’s always had it and I noticed that from the get go but you will find this out someday as you get older your flavor

39:16
ability to smell and taste goes away a little bit so

39:21
and of course we’re all different our DNA is different but he’s really good at it and you know, I’m thankful to have him and the staff at Buffalo Trace who do it every single day taste different different whiskeys but it’s quite a it’s quite an honor. And he’s got it. He’s got a got a nice little palette. What about Carrie Have you brought her in on the phone? Not yet, but she’s I think she’s, she’s looking forward to getting in there someday. What do we gotta do Carrie? What do we got to do?

39:50
I don’t know but she lives in Idaho.

39:54
It starts with moving died for to provide a home to Kentucky don’t Louise live here. So that’s true. You can

40:00
Get to the triplets. Yeah, if you all died tomorrow What would you do? You know, we got to start learning. Oh,

40:06
thanks

40:09
Karen you got a plan we need to know about healer.

40:13
No, I know I just you know, the more she talks the more I think she’s gonna bump us off

40:19
I just you know, I just know we have three valuable pallets on the sidelines we can always learn learn that palette you know I do it is or just all joking. Oh, here here’s an idea. Here’s an idea. You could you could get you could come out with a new brand. Call it triplet, Van Winkle, tequila, tequila.

40:42
Tequila drinkers before they drink bourbon, no triplet tequila brand.

40:48
carries why you’re not being asked to join these paddles.

40:54
It doesn’t taste like tequila.

40:57
In 2013 I was a

41:00
I was a rookie judge on the San Francisco world spirits competition. I tasted this bourbon and we tasted a lot of different Bourbons and our meditation one I was like, I bet that’s Pappy it’s really fucking good. I hope it doesn’t win. Even though I voted for it to win it because of the Pappy hype, right? I didn’t want more Pappy hysteria. And sure enough, it was it was the Pappy Van Winkle 15 year old. This happens to be my favorite expression that you all put out. Is it yours to carry? Do you have a favorite expression of Pappy that’s

41:35
honestly I love bourbon. I love our bourbon, but I honestly don’t get to drink enough of it to be able to give a really strong opinion on that. But she still would like to be a taster. Yeah.

41:48
I have a lot to learn. But I do appreciate it very much. I think I know someone you can learn from. Right, right. So you don’t have a favorite expression of your family’s heritage. I mean

42:00
Honestly, truthfully, I, I don’t get to drink it enough to really be able to pick up on that. I do know that I think he drinks at all before she gets a chance to I think I’ve had most recently like the 20 year and I’m like, Oh yeah, I’m like, No wonder people love it. I like that is insanely delicious. It’s like dessert to me. And so I think I probably would go not for the 15 year because it’s a little hot for me. So I probably go with the 20 year if I had to give Okay, well, there we go. We have something to say. There we go. So, in the bourbon business, they like to say, when you ask them, How should you drink it? They usually say drink it however you like. So I’m going to ask everyone up here. Is it okay to drink Pappy? 23 year old with Coca Cola

42:50
maybe Mexican coke. It’s pretty good with that.

42:54
But no.

42:57
No, pushing it. That’s pushing it exactly.

43:00
But I don’t know why you would. Fred, what are you doing?

43:06
Yes, if you’ve got a word, you’re gonna push back. If you’ve got a

43:12
few cases of 23 year old Pappy, and you got the money to burn, hey, whatever. But otherwise why would you? Why would you want to do that? You could get a perfectly good bottle of four year old bourbon to mix with your go. I’ll just say that I guess a lot of other people besides us take it a lot more seriously than we do. And so I’ll just say you know people, especially with Pappy and company, we make cocktails and mixed drinks and people kind of can give us a bad rap for that. It’s like you know what, we love old fashions. We love Manhattan’s we like bourbon cocktails we like all kinds of mixed drinks and so there’s no harm in that so people definitely will be will say that to mix anything with any of our products. Even ice is wrong, but it’s so

44:00
not wrong. What’s the future for? For old Rip Van Winkle? Can we see a distillery? Are we going to continue on the same model? Are you talking to dad and breasted or me?

44:12
Are you going to start a distillery?

44:15
It’s way too expensive.

44:17
We’re good. Thanks. I would have done it a long time ago. But

44:23
you know, if it ain’t broke, don’t fix it. I would like to. But

44:28
we’re definitely could change some distilling at Buffalo Trace to differentiate the Buffalo. I’m in the van Winkle from the Weller for sure. We’re working on that. So To be continued, but

44:42
it’s a it’s a huge proposition and tons of money and you can go broke aging whiskey for 23 years is all I gotta say. So there’s a lot of craft distillers out there, and they will soon find out what it takes to hold on to whiskey for a long period of time. Well, no, not only that,

45:00
But like starting a distillery, you’re looking at like an entirely new

45:06
machine making your product and you’re like, it’s a gamble. You know, who knows what’s going to be any good? Exactly yeast distilling equipment, it’s all changes everything. So people say well just make it over there. We made it there. You can’t do that water used equipment, copper, stainless. It’s a lot of variables. So staying on the future of Pappy, we talked about pricing a little bit. And I was just at an option. I emceed an option at the speed museum on Thursday, where a lot of Pappy went for $17,500 little bit of change there that someone wanted to spend on some Pappy. And the market continually shows that it will, it will bear

45:55
you could triple your your MSRP and the market would still accept it.

46:00
Is there any thought about increasing your price, your MSRP we’ve

46:06
we’ve taken price increases,

46:10
like every other year is kind of been our model.

46:14
At a, again, a pretty conservative rate.

46:19
Our feeling is these brands were built on the backs of people who were willing to spend them the money on a on a product that

46:30
was more expensive than the average bourbon.

46:35
And

46:37
now it’s gotten to the point where you know when 50 or 60 or 80 bucks was kind of the top end that people were willing to spend on a bourbon.

46:49
Those people are now spending 200 300 400 $500 on a bottle.

46:57
We don’t want to price those people

47:00
out of the market for our products.

47:05
So, but still Yeah, still a slim chance they’re gonna give it though. Yeah, we want to leave it out there. We’ve actually just we’ve taken a very minor price increase that will hit stores this year. It’s still nothing compared to the Craigslist prices and the aftermarket prices, whatever.

47:25
But it’s the assholes in the retail shops and on Craigslist that are making all the money not us. So if if they’re going to charge that they’re going to charge whatever they’re going to charge. We can’t control it legally anyway. We’re doing okay.

47:41
We’re going to continue to price where we see where we think that the suggested retail price should be.

47:50
And hope that retailers will fall in line we’ve we in Buffalo Trace have taken some steps to kind of curb the the secondary

48:00
Market Wait, what? What steps have you taken? Like, there are a lot of lot of dollars being thrown from a legal standpoint and getting Facebook groups shut down. So you all you all contribute it to shutting down the Facebook secondary markets. Yeah.

48:22
It’s illegal first Firstly, it’s illegal. And secondly, it makes it harder for these folks to get a bottle at a fair price which also has no sat right with us. You also don’t know what you’re getting in a bottle because there are tons of counterfeiters. So if you take one thing away from this little loud conference here to having today

48:45
thank god Our music is good.

48:49
If you buy something on the secondary market, you cannot guarantee what’s going to be in that bottle. So our business was spread on word of mouth, if you will, please spread this one.

49:00
Don’t buy on the secondary market because you cannot guarantee what’s in that bottle because the counterfeiters are really good if they would put their effort into a legal deal they’d be billionaires but they choose to be illegal and

49:15
you don’t know what you’re going to get because 1500 bucks to get one of those capsules spinners and it costs probably another three or 400 bucks to get a box of those capsules, foil capsules

49:28
and if you’re selling

49:31
zero dollar whiskey for

49:35
three grand it’s a pretty good investment if your if your account you could get on eBay right now and find empty bottles of Pappy

49:45
and they’re gonna be filled someday. Yeah, so for sure anybody got a good eBay account I could partner with you on for these two bottles.

49:57
smashing. I was joking actually. I can

50:00
You are alive. What about that yet? You really take very seriously Yeah, I actually had a consumer email me the other day and said, Hey, I found a case of empties.

50:13
Can I send them to you for a second life? We don’t have any there’s nothing we can do with them legally. So I just asked them to either scrape off the labels or smash the bottles to avoid them ending up on the secondary market because there are countless instances of people selling a bottle on eBay and that exact same bottle ending up on Craigslist or in a Facebook group for sale again for selling an empty and then that full bottle reappears. If you could, if you could be in a room with a known counterfeiter,

50:50
one on one

50:52
who was reselling

50:55
Why would you say or do to that person

51:00
would get arrested

51:03
at the end of it

51:05
it would Yeah, I’d be ugly. Wow.

51:10
a gallon of Chautauqua

51:13
could shut

51:16
down his throat or her throat or so do Yeah, yeah, I just make him drink the whole bottle of whatever rock they put in the bottle and hope that it was voiceprints

51:28
Wow. We’re like we’re deadly serious about this. It is just trying to protect our customer. Yeah, it’s all over and the week we put out of what we feel is a high quality product and for somebody else to

51:44
benefit from that assumed quality when there is none is disheartening. I hear that, you know, the other side is for a lot of like consumers. You know, there’s a lot of people who will never get in reach or be able to

52:00
buy a bottle, it’s just very difficult to buy one. And, you know, they’re those secondary markets, you know, for some people that provided that opportunity in some ways. I mean, what do you think about that I gave in some ways it could have been like an extension it’s real though right? if if if it’s real so like, do you do you feel like there’s a solution there because it because I know you want to protect customers, but there’s not a lot of happy to get to the customers and that’s that’s been the hard part. It’s a fine line it really is. We hate to turn down you know, hated the people don’t get to enjoy our whiskey as it will go to a bar where they sell it for a decent price. You can try it, you know, because it’s more, sometimes more available in a bar, but it is a fine line. We have to tread there. So we’re just trying to convince people to be careful and not go to the secondary market cuz I mean, you know the thing in

52:58
Costa Rica or somewhere Haiti

53:00
Somewhere where it was somewhere in the Caribbean there were the people were poisoned by people literally dying for their thing. You know, a minibar, it was poison so that’s the best the bad part. Well, it happens every day all over the world, somebody dying from illicit alcohol. It just doesn’t get reported because it wasn’t an American tourist at a no inclusive resort in the Caribbean. It happens every single day in the UK, India, Russia, all over the world.

53:31
Well, I’ve been giving the that sign which means I have to close in here and we were just kind of get in some good stuff. And Julian I always love being on the stage with you. You’re a fun person to talk to on the stage. Pressing carry things is the first time we’ve interacted like this and you guys are awesome. How about it ladies and gentlemen for the van winkles.

53:55
Thanks for I thank you all for coming. I will say one thing. There will never be a box

54:00
And beyond I just put that in your pipe and smoke it thanks Julian for the for the vodka hate their

54:10
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56:12
All right, ladies and gentlemen, welcome to bourbon beyond this right here is the bourbon pursuit Roundtable. We are joined here with my podcasting partner Kenny Coleman. And we’ve got Brian sip of corn Blake that also known as Cal Ripken of bourbon or, and Jordan from bait breaking bourbon, and of course, our MC and master taster for old Forester, Jackie ziketan. What’s up everybody? Yo,

56:43
hey, I mean, I don’t know about you all. I think our age is starting to show my back’s already hurt. And I know about you all. It’s been a long few days. But last night is standing up for a while heard a little bit but

56:55
I’m wondering Hey Jackie does being barefooted help you with the backend stuff as it helps

57:00
ground and Sunday. Yeah, you know, the Barefoot the Barefoot movement is real. I learned about this and I these things are practically barefoot. So anyway, so we’re at bourbon and beyond, and everybody out here has is on a panel or has been on the stage. And we’ve all been moderators or MC the whole time. And I just want to get a quick thought of what, what you’ve learned or what were some of your takeaways from your panels, or what you’ve listened to. I’ll start with you, Brian. Sure. I did the whiskies dark past and the the amount of knowledge that we had from Chris Morris and Bernie lovers and Susan regular was just amazing. You I don’t think you can get three more knowledgeable people on stage at once. And we focused on lawlessness, I sort of focus on the law. So it was the opposite of what I normally do. But it was it was great and a great opportunity to have that. So thanks, Fred. What what was a good juicy story that came out of there? Well, I thought Chris

58:00
was going to going to say that the prohibition style 1920 evoked the lawlessness and he actually went the opposite direction and said brown Forman is focusing on law on them being within the law during Prohibition and having one of the medicinal licenses. So that was the one thing that surprised me but the the juiciest things I think came from Bernie and Susan about George Ramis. And that’s where you really get into the murders. You got a guy who goes to jail during Prohibition, gets out, murders his wife in front of everybody in Cincinnati, and gets off on one of the first uses of the insanity defense. So a lot of great stories on the lawlessness side of bourbon. That’s what we consider a great story. Yeah. What one other thing is that brown, brown Forman actually bought bourbon from George Remus through his secretary after he was in jail. So the government would allow people what they would seize the bootleggers.

59:00
barrels and then sell them back to distillers. So I think that this the the government was really double dip and makin prohibition, probably triple dipping. Sure they would tax it after that. That’s right or chance. So, Blake, what have you What have you learned out here today? Yes, today’s my seminar is still to come this afternoon. So you’ll get to hear me twice today which I’m sure is exciting. But so it’s going to be on sweet match for sour mash. And we have Pat Heiss promoter and his trail and then Caleb from peerless, so. I’m excited for that one. But you know, all the seminars have been great. I think there was a lot of stuff that popped up in the master distiller paying on Friday as well as the Van Winkle one, you know, that one.

59:42
Definitely had a lot of cool details coming out of it. So it’s been it’s cool just to see people kind of up close and a little more laid back setting where give somebody some bourbon and you don’t always get the same PR answer as you may get in a normal and you let the secret start flowing. Yeah, that’s what we want.

1:00:00
That’s that’s kind of really that’s kind of been my vision and curating these panels, get people drunk.

1:00:06
They would reinforce

1:00:09
people talk and you know it, they’re they’re very different. And you can’t

1:00:15
it’s not like a camera interview or anything like that. It’s not to say that we’re trying to get gotcha questions or anything. But, you know, I, the the, the distilleries don’t always realize that their marketing goes against them, because they don’t let the real stories come out. And the real stories to me are always so much better. I’m curious what you like I didn’t get to catch the master distiller one was there, was there a good real story in there that really caught your attention? You know, I think just the question was brought up about should there be like a union of master distillers or what does that really mean? And you hear them all just kind of the respect is like, No, we don’t need a union, but we don’t want somebody just popping up and using the name as well. Like

1:01:00
masters just somebody has all this experience and then I think it was in this one but the kind of the quote that stands out to me is trip Simpson from barrel bourbon. He says you know garbage in garbage out like you gotta as a master you gotta know the process from beginning to end and doesn’t doesn’t just stop at distillation or in the barrel and so just you know they have to oversee the entire process which is interesting. It most of them say that the proof is in their whiskey Yeah, right that’s what they want to say it and maybe they should also keep a shame list if they want to make sure that there’s this list Yeah, well that take the name like this just all back back store kind of stories between him. Yeah, you MC the what is a master distiller? I did, what was that like for you? It was good. You know, it’s it’s a good melting of minds of everybody that we’ve had on the podcast before to come up and kind of talk but also in more of a laid back way. You know, for me, it wasn’t more or less just getting answers out of them, but it was also seeing the crowd and kind of having them have an opportunity to build

1:02:00
Let’s see like, Oh, these are the people like these are the stories behind that the whiskey that they’re drinking every single day. And I think for me, I love being able to see the the crowd out here and be able to really harness and get some more those inside details. I think that’s really the coolest part because we’re able to bring a lot of the information from really what’s happening inside kind of share that with the world. And they have an opportunity to really understand what goes on behind some of these doors that you know, when Jackie sitting here trying to taste and figure out Oh, what’s this year’s all for the birthday bourbon going to be like, you know, we can be able to share that. And that’s really what the opportunity here is able to make that happen. Now, Jordan, I know you’ve been watching, you’ve got a panel today, right? Yeah, my panel is going to be right after this. Stick around. You got the old fashioned versus a Manhattan. I do. And this is one where everyone’s always asking me like what’s your favorite cocktail? And there’s this huge debate in like the bartending world of what is better for bourbon. Is it the old fashion or Manhattan so where are you where

1:03:00
Are you going to take this? What can we expect you where you’re going to push one way or the other? I don’t know. You know, I think everyone really has their own favorite right personal preference. Both are great. But I think there’s a lot of variation talks. There’s no set until that party line. He’s making a hard push for vodka soda, so that’s gonna be okay, listen, no more.

1:03:20
The stage, it’s better. We all need Manhattan. No, no, okay, no, no. Sorry, yeah, but I’m gonna say this.

1:03:28
Say this later. And I’m gonna cross that line and back and forth multiple times a day. But in my previous life before being a part of the old forester team, I was a beverage director and I had to train bartenders across different states across different bars. And I would always tell them what their Manhattan so and with any cocktail you stirred, you taste it to make sure your delusions correct, right. You taste you tasting, tasting, until you get to the point where the Manhattan where it tastes like absolute shit. And then you did it right. Because that’s Manhattan.

1:03:56
Wow. We’re starting

1:03:59
it

1:04:03
A dual behind stage here after this. And that concludes old fashioned Merce Manhattan. Wow. So you’ve also been watching the seminars what’s caught your eye? Yeah, I think there’s been you know, this festival has been great, great music, great talks. I think we had Kenny Europe here yesterday with Wes Anderson dropping some, some knowledge about the forthcoming bottle and bond ride for angels, me rock, angels me. And it’s just been a great place to you know, here’s the music in the background. You’re gonna hear a lot of good influential bourbon things, but it’s also one of the few festivals. Go back to the big bourbon 10 grab a bourbon master distillers just walking around, they just want to say hi, grab a drink. It’s awesome. It’s a definitely one of the few places that you can see something like this. So I’m glad we’re all here to experience that. Now, the one of the panels I moderated was with the Van Winkle family, and they dropped all the juice

1:04:55
came out they of course Preston Van Winkle said that

1:05:00
They had hired lawyers and work with Facebook to shut down the secondary market. What’s everybody’s take on that? How long is this panel?

1:05:09
No, we’re not on the radar. I’ll jump in. It’s something we’ve discussed a lot and that was always kind of the rumor you know, not the rumor in Buffalo Trace as our company would always say, you know, they hated the secondary market and all this stuff so to get the confirmation that Yeah, they’re spending millions of dollars

1:05:31
i don’t think you know, we are in the bourbon. I always call it nerd world of people who talk way too much about it, but I don’t think they like that, you know, love it or hate the secondary market. It helped build a lot of these brands and build a lot of the hype and everything else. So then you’re also attacking it at the same time and I always go back to if I can’t find a bottle at retail, so my only option is just not to drink it at all because the supply is just so small compared to the demand. It

1:06:00
least you know, you could have that secondary market and nobody likes flipping but it was a lot more than that. Well, and I think people always assumed that they liked the secondary market because no one would buy well or special reserve if it weren’t for the secondary market and the hype, the artificial hype. That’s why I think it’s important that we separate Sazerac from the Van Winkle family. I think, I think I think it’s very important here because what I what I took away from, from that conversation yesterday, that they really felt the secondary market damage them and they felt that they were were victims of retailers jacking the prices up and everything and they didn’t have a solution other than go to the bar, but at the same time, Preston kept saying, like, we’re not the ones getting that money. We’re not the ones getting that money. And, and then they brought up counterfeiting. So I think that was interesting, right? I think there was a little bit

1:07:00
is clear they want to get some of that money. But more so when you you know, when you read some of the blowback online today, it was a lot of folks were wondering and someone spending the money on lawyers shut down the secondary, put that money towards counterfeiting measures try and make bottles a little bit safer, it’s going to take place no matter what you might as well make it safer for the consumers that they know what they’re getting is actually going to be the product they put out, like put your resources towards something that’s going to do well for the consumer. Katie, I’ve only like I haven’t really been online to see what the response has been other than like a who’s tagged me on Twitter, but what’s it What’s it been like? I know you track that stuff. Within a few hours after posting I think we had almost 200 comments on the picture of people kind of given their their take on it. And you know, I think what Preston said and being able to go against counterfeiting is is it’s a real thing. If anybody actually tries to go out there, there’s counterfeit bourbon on the market. People can buy foils from China and you can reseal and you can do a lot of different stuff. And they do that. Now when I look at it, I thought the the secondary market was healthy.

1:08:00
But it’s also become unhealthy. You know, if he says that we’re trying to stop counterfeits, and, you know, maybe that is one portion of it. And and I think another part is saying that he wants the money or somebody has to have that money. Well, the end of the day, the way this is going to work out, it’s just the retailers are going to make the money because if they’re going to be pricing it at secondary prices, they’re the ones making the money. Now I see potentially the future of how this could eventually shift is if the three tier system has a rapid change, and there’s more direct from the manufacturer to the consumer market available. Yeah, but the retail industry is going to block that and the wholesale industry will block that as much as they can. What one thing that I also took away from

1:08:46
from the van winkles was how how much anger there was toward this subject. I mean, I don’t know if you could feel it, but I could feel I could feel it coming off.

1:09:00
I mean, it was 93 degrees out here. Yes, yeah.

1:09:03
Right. He was he was really. And he It’s like he wanted to get that off of his chest. He really did, which I’m sure they get a ton of blowback from all of that of people mad that they can’t find their bourbon. And then, you know, it’s kind of the easy target is to say, Oh, I can’t find Pappy Van Winkle. Because the secondary market, you know, whether or not that’s true, I’m sure they, you know, I’d be frustrated too. I just think it was probably a, you know, maybe not where they wanted to aim the anger directly at the secondary market. I think there’s a plug or a lot of other issues behind that. Then just recently, well, and you have to remember to so Pappy is about to drop pretty soon in the coming weeks and months. So there, you know, they must be going to constantly, we’re not gonna be able to find it. It’s too expensive, and that just probably boils up right towards the fall. So that’s all bubbling towards the top of their mind right now. And it was it was just prime time for that to come out. I’m very glad they came on the stage because you know, they didn’t

1:10:00
too, and you know, they knew I was going to. I didn’t share the questions with them, but they’ve been with me before and they know that I asked questions so you’d like to throw a few curveballs once in a while.

1:10:13
But Preston did admit that he would probably commit a felony if he got in a room with counterfeiter. And Kenny. We have an upcoming podcast with a with a admitted counterfeiter who was caught.

1:10:31
Yeah, it’s gonna be a juicy one. Yeah, it you know, when when we were having that conversation with press in that interview that we had with him just kept coming into my mind, you know, of like, of all the things that we saw in the secondary market on counterfeiting. Where do you think we are when it comes to counterfeiting? Is the secondary market going away help it or does it hurt it? I personally think it might hurt the efforts to stop

1:11:00
counterfeiting because there’s a pretty good little police force out there. And that’s what I think most people don’t understand. If you’re not deep into the bourbon world as we are that there are pockets of people that this is what they spend their time and their hobby doing is actually chasing counterfeits. Now they’re no part of any legal entity or anything like that, like, that’s what they do. They love to be able to shop around on eBay, because if you can go on eBay, you’ll see empty bottles of Pappy Van Winkle that you can buy. nobody’s buying bottles for $50 and make lamps out of alum sorry, right. They’re not doing that right there. They’re going away with a purpose. And so what you can do is they spend the time tracking those serial numbers and seeing where they end up and then they go and basically flame those people that end up ektron to sell them at some point, right? And they try to trace it back and figure out exactly where the route actually came from. So there is a there’s already a good self policing community that’s already with inside of bourbon today. So Julian after the seminar was over, he pulled out a pot big friggin pocket knife.

1:12:00
onstage and started cutting the labels. He’s like, this is how we prevent it. I was like, How the hell did you get that through security?

1:12:08
But yeah, so I think I think this is a, this is going to influence our, our kind of our little community, you know, quite a bit. And for them to come out publicly that they helped shut it down was really something another thing that was a first this this was the first public appearance, Marianne eaves, since she had left castle and key. Did any anybody catch her talk to her while she was on stage? I got to talk to her back behind her a little bit. It seems like everything’s going great. She’s got an upcoming TED Talk, which is amazing, right? I mean, I think being able to have that honor is is it’s an incredible experience and, you know, happy for her and be able to do that. And, you know, I think we’re all excited to kind of just see what happens next. And she’s had some great experience since she left

1:13:00
With with rum and tequila and traveling around and and I think we’ll see here in a lot of different places in the future. And of course she’s on a round table alarm so we’re always rooting for Marianne. So I got a question for you all. So we got we got some people out here and you know, we were actually there was when we had the Van Winkle thing out there, there was the we sample 15 year, right? It was amazing opportunity, amazing experience now, not everybody’s gonna be able to get that opportunity, right. So let’s go ahead and everybody can kind of give a if you can’t get Pappy, what’s the next best bourbon that you can drink? There’s always those articles that come out and they say, here’s here’s, here’s five Bourbons better than Pappy or real talking accessible Bourbons. Yes, let’s do that for the crowd. And for people who have been think that they want to try it, but they might want some some steps, they’ll be able to like get down that path. So it’s only in six markets. So maybe that doesn’t make it completely accessible but for those of you who are here from out of state

1:14:00
Kentucky is one of the markets. Four roses has a new, small batch select is what they call it 204 proof, it’s about $50. It’s I think it’s my top new bourbon of the year, you should be able to find it. And again, the six markets, it competes with some really tough Bourbons. My, maybe one of my second favorites is old forester 1920, which is a higher proof, then than that. So you you really got to go to which profile you prefer, but if you haven’t had the small batch select yet, that’s what I’d go for. Yeah, I think it’s, you know, it’s pretty tough comparison because when we’re talking about weighted Bourbons with a lot of age on it, there’s just not much on the market that compares or is anywhere near available. But what I would suggest is wilderness trail actually has a weeded bourbon that they’re releasing. And it’s, you know, obviously on the age there’s, it’s not even close because I think they’re, they’re bottling around for four to five years, but

1:15:00
We were there the other day and really great product. So if you need a weighted bourbon and looking for something a little higher proof, I’d say give wilderness trail a try. I think you also because you made poor man’s Pappy famous. So you got to talk about Really? What is it make or what what are the components of Forman’s, Pappy and then and can you even find those components? I know that’s the thing you can’t even make a ninja comes in Yeah, yeah so so this was I wrote a blog post probably I think it’s around 2013 about the poor man’s Pappy I don’t know if I came up with the actual name I’m pretty sure I did but I definitely stole the blend from somebody else and put my own name on it but it’s just 60 part or 60% well or 12 I what we just talked about counterfeiting

1:15:47
know so it’s a it’s a blend of 60% well or 12 and 40% well or antique and you know, you get somewhere around that 10 year mark and around the hundred and seven proof or excuse me

1:16:00
Hunger proof, whatever it is, I need to look at the article but so then

1:16:06
yeah, I tried to take things and

1:16:09
get it it’s really hard to remember your own writing. So it is yeah. So take it a step earlier is I put a blind tasting together of the, you know a fresh Pappy or, you know fake Pappy. So and then you know well or 12 real Pappy and then version that I put in a Blendtec and blend it up. And every single time I’ve done this, the blended bourbon like literal blended bourbon has won the blind taste in so I don’t know what it is the aeration, whatever it is, you know, also stole that from a master taster saying yes, it talked about what does aeration do to it because I it was funny because we had a blind taste off. And I think you sent us 10 samples, and we were like, Damn, this is really good. And then you pulled it out and it was literally like from a ninja blender.

1:17:00
bourbon in it. So if you want a 4000 gallon ninja blender, we need that. Yeah, so some of my favorite barrels in the warehouse are actually the lowest yield barrels because they’ve had so much headspace so much air space in there. And there are some arguments out there that once you’ve gone through the distillation process, your liquid in and of itself has been oxidized to the point that it could ever be oxidized after going through all of the industrial process. Once you get into the barrel, though, what they’re not taking into consideration is the extraction of different compounds from that actual wood and creating new compounds that can then also the oxidized so I love the low yield barrels if I could just mingle all the low yield barrels together into a blend which may or may not be coming Monday, exactly what’s going on. So the same way that you would decant a really heavy tannic red wine to soften out that tannin. The exact same thing that’s going on when you’re going through a blender at home with your By the way, I just want to I want to say something about Jackie she’s a champion for the people wouldn’t

1:18:00
Whiskey my pic for like one of the one of the every it’s not a bourbon it’s a rides the old forced to ride I’m just in love with the old forced to ride right now and I would buy that I do I buy cases regularly unfortunately.

1:18:15
And horrible problem. I have an old horse arrived problem. But one of the things that’s really cool about that rye whiskey is it’s $23 and her management wanted to actually make it be like double or triple the price right? And she bought for it to be $23 like she like intimidated presidents and vice presidents of brown Forman to keep it at $23 not that scary

1:18:44
now but I think it’s very, isn’t that awesome? The mafioso or the mafia? have voted for

1:18:51
Jackie O straight cut, you know it will not.

1:18:56
I know I know. But I think it’s very important for us to stand strong.

1:19:00
is a brand that has always long been known as the sort of like, really great quality product but doesn’t have to be a fuss about it. So old forester is known as like one of the best things for your buck, and we need to stay consistent with that, regardless of what the trends are doing. So it’s locals house bourbon for those who aren’t around here, that’s what we call it. Yeah, but thank you for keeping it at 23 bucks. Jordan, I don’t think you got a chance to say not because Jackie’s here but you know, we get that question a lot from a lot of people and in terms of just available Bourbons, we often recommend 1920 it’s, you know, it’s about 60 bucks give or take right right around there and you can usually find in the stores and people just tend to love it. So it’s one that you know, we tend to stock up on and breaking bourbon and introduce a lot of people to and you know, it’s great, but really what we always tell people to is happy is going to be what you make up happy, right? So if you have a bourbon that you absolutely love, just stick with it. There’s nothing wrong with that by what you love, drink what you love and, and don’t let anyone else tell you what’s going to be back to the damn brand. Change it like lower the age statement or

1:20:00
You know use a lesser quality barrels for something else. Oh god that pisses me off.

1:20:07
When they do that, I know we could have a whole grind your gears

1:20:11
never getting

1:20:14
any Coleman and this is grind your gears. Absolutely. So I’ll kind of give my my take on that as well because you know, I think we had talked about some weeded Bourbons and stuff like that. I’m a big fan of the maker’s 46 private select program, the fact that there are 1001 different combinations of what’s out there, meaning that you can go to a lot of different stores, you can sample a lot of different ones. And they have a lot of different varying profiles. The one that Larry had brought in here yesterday and and I think most of us can say that today it is probably the only bourbon that’s out there that can probably come close that tasting. dusty ish, right? So anybody that’s unfamiliar, dusty, it’s, you know, 70s 80s it’s got a tax stamp on it. Nobody knows why it has this kind of flavor profile to it.

1:21:00
hates it we’ve been down this road before most of us up here enjoy it. However I think that the maker’s 46 private select program gives any any consumer out there the opportunity to try something in a we did Nashville but have a lot of varying differences because they have all the different flavoring states and as a great pic. And unfortunately we’re coming to the to the end of our

1:21:22
round table. Here we go.

1:21:25
Well, okay, okay, but you have to pick outside of old forester going to

1:21:32
catch it is. So in fairness, I drink the least of the 1920 because I drink barrel strength for a job on such a regular basis that I got to be kind of my liver. However, the 1920

1:21:44
No, it is what

1:21:49
it is.

1:21:52
But the 1920 is a very unique higher proof expression in that it actually holds balance as you dilute through it. So even if you’re not 100

1:22:00
drinker, you can adjust it accordingly to where you want it to taste best that there’s a lot of high proof whiskeys on the market that once you start watering it back they fall apart or defects starts to come. So tuition Yes, a lot of distillers will hide subpar barrels like you were saying they start putting someone like that just throw it in there and in some of these high proof blends because you cannot discern defects at high alcohol concentration. Now you have to pick something outside old forester

1:22:26
got to do it.

1:22:28
I wanted the single barrel pick from four roses It was a barrel strength single barrel pick it was with doc rose before I took this job and it had the best cordial cherry amazing flavor profile. It was exquisite of super super low proof it was tucked away in a nice cool spot. It’s the Hunter S Thompson single barrel if you guys go into the docks and and try one but I have a case of it at home is it laced with LSD? No. Be cooler if it was. So we’ve got to start getting ready for

1:23:00
The next panel but as we do that let’s go ahead and tell everybody where to find you like social media I’ll start first so bourbon pursuit so you can find us We are a weekly podcast you can download open up your your phone open up the your podcasting app type in the word bourbon will probably be up there in the top results. Go ahead and subscribe. It’s a weekly release and we have Tuesdays we come out of the 62nd was review as well. We talked about everything from having people like Jackie on the shows, multiple time alumni we’ve had master distillers talk about bourbon culture such as topics like today, and most of these guys are always regulars on it too. So it’s always fantastic. So Jordan from breaking bourbon, you can find us at breaking bourbon or breaking bourbon. com We are the leading resource for whiskey reviews and bottle release calendars. Yeah, I’m Blake from bourbon or that’s BOURBONR. I got made fun of last night by Lauren who has to edit this because of how I spell out the name every time. So I want to throw that out there but yeah, Facebook

1:24:00
Twitter Instagram just look for bourbon or

1:24:04
and I’m Brian with sip and corn you can find me that blog name is sip and corn and also twitter facebook instagram and also you search for bourbon justice calm and you’ll go to my website as well bourbon justice

1:24:19
so I’m the curator of the festival and editor in chief of bourbon plus magazine and proud co co hosts on bourbon pursuit. But this is a to me this is the future of like whiskey media. I invited the everyone up here because I appreciate what they’re doing to continue the whiskey education which is often lacking and so I I’ve been trying to use bourbon and beyond as a way to to help some some some great minds and whiskey share their knowledge what how do you find me? Well, darling, you can find me and seeing this stage for the rest of the day. Other than that pop down ZO force or distillery some

1:25:00
I’m there sometimes I’m I don’t know somewhere else. But you can find me on Instagram at at Jackie’s I can and peek into my personal like and like hiking. Hey, you know, I cannot believe I Oh, you know I just give you it’s me I was very rude. Okay, you’re gonna get sick of hearing from me by the end of the day. Jackie’s the best everybody. Thank you all so much for coming. Have a wonderful day. Cheers everyone.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai