Pretty sure everyone has heard about Barton 1792’s Warehouse collapsing but we take our stab at some chaos theories. Brian Harra from Sipp’n Corn defended Castle and Key against Sazerac in a lawsuit and won. And the second half of the show is discussing all the new releases that are set to debut.

Show Notes:

• Drinking Old Forester‘s President’s Choice, Kentucky Owl Rye, Wilderness Trail, Elijah Craig, and Henry McKenna
• Why doesn’t Heaven Hill allow Elijah Craig Barrel Proof picks?
• It’s the story that broke headlines and most of our phones were buzzing from family sending us links as if we hadn’t heard of it yet. But Warehouse 30 at Barton collapsed.
• First, lets go ahead and see who got the most texts or links sent to them?
• I know they haven’t said the cause, but if you go check out a previous podcast guests blog, bourbontruth, you will see that he wrote an article back in 2015 about infestation of beetles
• On June 14, 2018, one of the panelists on this roundtable actually counter-suit Sazerac and won. A quick summary of the decision went as follows. Will Arvin and Wesley Murry are the guys behind the Castle and Key venture, even though we see Marianne Barnes on IG all the time. During the period where they were renovating, it was commonly referred to as the old taylor distillery or the spot formally known as. The problem with this was that Sazerac sued them for defamation for the name of Old Taylor saying that it caused brand confusion. Court Ruling PDF
• What’s the Lanham Act?
• Sazerac points out that there is a four-hundred foot “Old Taylor Distillery” sign on the distillery’s barrel storage warehouse and a twenty-foot “The Old Taylor Distillery Company” sign above the entrance to its main building. What did they expect to do with this?
• Was there a settlement to be paid? Or attorney fees get paid?
• Kentucky Owl Rye Batch 2 raise in SRP to $200. Almost a 50% increase. Seen some sold for $160
• 1792 BiB single barrels
• Parker’s Orange Curacao finish
• Booker’s 30th Blend Announcement – Blake I saw in your email round up you talked about this. Can you give a recap?
• Wild Turkey Revival
• Heaven Hill 27 year
• Knob Creek Cask Strength Rye
• Thanks to Blake from Bourbonr.com, Jordan from Breaking Bourbon, Brian from Sipp’n Corn, and Kerry from Subourbia for joining this week.
• Listen to all the Community Roundtables at https://bourbonpursuit.com/bourbon-community-roundtable-podcasts/

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• Let’s do what we all always do and start from the beginning. Do you remember your introduction into whiskey?
• Can you talk about your education and what led you into distillation?
• So lets look at your history at MGP Ingredients. What was your career path and trajectory there?
• The internals of MGPi aren’t discussed very much. How big is the operation there?
• What was the idea to distill all that rye before it became popular?
• Are there more spirits that were produced than others?
• What was the break out in bourbon vs rye being produced?
• Do you pride yourself in knowing that 90% of the Ryes and probably a good percentage of bourbon on the shelves of liquor stores is all from your work?
• How popular was contract distilling 10 years ago?
• Do you feel a bit angered or left out knowing there are tons of NDPs out there who are making a fortune telling a story about a rye that you created?
• Talk us through the process of selling to an NDP. Are they coming to MGP asking for juice? Is MGP coming to them first trying to sell them?
• Are there contracts that say you can or can’t market a MGP bourbon or rye?
• Are there boundaries on how they market MGP juice?
• I’d like to know if they have ever had to turn someone away with either just buying sourced barrels or contract distilling? If so what is the pecking order or criteria?
• What are NDPs doing to make their product different or if it’s all the same stuff?
• Are NDPs taking barrel from the same warehouses or how do they pick and choose?
• Did the whiskey boom hurt MGP getting rid of aged stocks?
• Lets talk about Old Elk in Colorado

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Wes Henderson ran with his father’s idea of doing port barrel finished bourbon. He weathered the storm of critics and let the product carve a new path where barrel finishes are now commonplace. It caught the eye of Bacardi and is continuing to grow with their own distillery that’s now up and running. We talk about brand loyalty, social media, acquisitions, and business models when it comes to bourbon and spirits.

Show Notes:

• Wes, you were back on Episode 006 which was back in March of 2015. I mean that was a long time ago! But for all those who just recently joined, lets give a quick recap of who you are, you father, the origins of Angel’s Envy, etc.
• Also, why the port finish?
• Barrel finishes are taking off, do you think you’re delivering a better product than just standard bourbon?
• You know last time we talked, you were talking about trying a sherry finished cask. How has that experiment progressed?
• One of the great things I see consistently out of you is how you connect with the people who drink Angel’s Envy on social media. You respond back to almost every angels envy hashtag thanking the consumer. How does that effect brand loyalty?
• How are you connecting to a wide demographic to bourbon drinkers?
• The last time we saw each other was at Bourbon and Beyond and I thought this can’t be real. When did people in bourbon started getting treated like celebrities. I was there with you hanging out on stage with the bands as they were playing and it was a good time.
• I know I’ve seen you rubbing shoulders with a lot of Hollywood elite now too. I think you’re becoming secret best friends with actress and country music singer Laura Bell Buddy.
• So the last time we talked it was the same exact week Bacardi had announced the take over of Angel’s Envy. How has that been going?
• Was the Bacardi acquisition a big jump in capital that was needed?
• Then why a Distillery if no debt? What was wrong with the sourcing business model?
• You talked about tremendous upside building in Louisville but where’s the risk?
• As the innovation officer, how are you getting your brand into the eyes of more consumers every day?
• Do you think the acquisition train will be coming full steam as bourbon begins to rise?

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You know when people say “I miss the good ‘ol days”? Guthrie McKay is one of them. He has seen the bourbon renaissance flourish as he’s been nestled in a small little liquor store in downtown Bardstown called Toddy’s Liquors. Toddy’s has almost become a stop on its own as people visit the Kentucky Bourbon Trail. Listen as Guthrie tells stories of taking customers to visit Booker and Parker, his run in with Bill Thomas, and how the current boom has made him adapt business.

Show Notes:

• Talk about the store. How did you get into the liquor business?
• Why didn’t you name it after yourself?
• Talk about Bardstown 30 years ago and the bourbon scene and how it has changed
• Was there a premium brand back then?
• Did you have a hard time selling stuff like Booker’s or Maker’s Mark?
• Talk more about those early relationships with first entrants in the market?
• I’m sure you aren’t sending people to the Beam’s house any longer
• Is your store becoming another stop on the bourbon trail?
• What’s your most annoying Pappy story?
• Talk about your history with Bill Thomas
• How do you deal with distributor games now?
• Are you looking forward to seeing Bardstown grow with reinvestments into infrastructure for keeping bourbon booming?
• How do you deal with shelf space on craft brands?
• Are you major buyers on the bourbon trail or everyday consumers?
• So you don’t feel bad about pricing above secondary?
• Are gift shops taking away from your bottom line?
• What can big distilleries do to help support you?
• Can Bardstown support any more business? Are there enough people?
• You’ve talked about lot of gripes, but tell us what are some of the positives

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The craft beer and wine world has good apps, why doesn’t bourbon? Have you started to see Henry McKenna games start with liquor stores and distributors? Are we entering a new era of specialty bourbon decanters to appeal to an audience that will bite? We investigate the reasons why it’s so hard to make bourbon apps popular. Tell true stories from the front lines of distributors bullying store owners on purchasing cases of Henry McKenna. Reveal our opinions on the new Old Fitzgerald Bottled-in-bond decanter.

Show Notes:

• Thanks to Blake from Bourbonr.com, Jordan from Breaking Bourbon, and Max from Superfly Bourbon Club for joining this week.
• Max recently spent his bachelor party trip in bourbon country, tell us about it.
• Why aren’t there apps? It works for beer and wine, but why not bourbon?
• Is there a false sense of scarcity with Henry McKenna?
• Are distributors starting games again?
• Why isn’t hoarding or buying multiple cases of Henry McKenna a good thing?
• Are spirits competitions getting too much recognition?
• Are decanters coming back in style?
• Are we rolling back to the 70s?
• Can this be a collectors item?
• Bob Dylan released his line of whiskey. Is this the start of celebs getting into the game?
• Listen to all the Community Roundtables at https://bourbonpursuit.com/bourbon-community-roundtable-podcasts/

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Is Jack Daniel’s a bourbon? It’s a question that has been asked thousands of times over and there never really seems to be a good answer. It’s about time you hear it from the man himself, the one who helps make every drop of that charcoal mellowed goodness, Jeff Arnett, the Master Distiller at Jack Daniel’s Distillery. We talk about the Lincoln County Process and if that changes the terminology from “Bourbon” to “Tennessee Whiskey” or if it can even be replicated in other parts of the country. If you’ve ever snuffed your nose at Jack thinking it’s not bourbon, perhaps you should listen to this episode and you might end up buying a bottle at the end.

Show Notes:

• Talk about your background
• Did Pringles really start because they couldn’t get rid of the tennis ball cans?
• When did you start there?
• We are pretty unfamiliar with Jack Daniel’s history. Was there an actual man named Jack Daniels?
• Jack Daniels like to categorize itself as a Tennessee Whiskey and not a bourbon so we are going to look at all the information in front of us and put it to rest
• So lets talk about the mash bill being the first checkbox… Does it use at least 51% of corn?
• What is it about your yeast and water that make Jack so unique?
• So lets talk about the distillation process of Jack Daniels because it’s in the United States which hits a check box. It follows pretty much every other bourbon law if i’m not mistaken, meaning that you aren’t adding flavoring agents, distilling at no more than 160 proof and entering the barrel at no more than 125 proof
• Give me an idea of what the Lincoln County process is?
• So you’re really just trying to one up Kentucky Bourbon then?
• You use new charred oak barrels, yes?
• In 2014, legislation was introduced in the Tennessee legislature that would modify the 2013 law to allow the reuse of oak barrels in the Tennessee whiskey aging process. But you opposed the legislation, why? is it because you secretly love bourbon?
• And it’s bottled at 80 proof which is also another checkbox.
• So by in large it follows the all the laws of being a bourbon… but it doesn’t want to be.
• Do you believe this is a major influence on the flavor or “charcoal mellowing” of Jack Daniels?
• Why do you think the general public cares if it’s a bourbon or tennessee whiskey? Is it because we have too much time on our hands?
• Do you start hearing of people from Kentucky who tell stories about disowning their sons when they bring a bottle of Jack to christmas because “it’s not bourbon”?
• Does it go the other way that Tennesseans don’t want to be associated to Kentucky bourbon?
• But it’s funny because Jack Daniels is a part of Brown-Forman, the same family as Woodford Reserve and Old Forester but it’s a substantial portion of the portfolio.
• Fred Minnick goes as far as saying that the federal government needs to define Tennessee Whiskey so this will be ended once and for all.
• So I think we’ve hit on a lot but I want to give our snobby listeners out there a taste of what’s beyond the signature black label. If someone out there wants to get into the other expressions where do they start?

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Picking a single barrel out of a line up seems relatively simple when compared to blending tens or hundreds of barrels together to hit a specific bourbon taste profile. Where does that process begin? Do you start with a few and keep taste testing? Is it a math formula of X spicy barrels to Y sweet barrels? This episode features Ed Bley, blender behind the underground phenomenon known as Old Baldy. We ask Ed what it’s like to go from picking single barrels to learning how to blend multiple barrels to hit a distinct flavor spot. It’s an art form that Ed describes as trying to perfect the “witch’s hat”.

Show Notes:

• Were you trying to make something truly unique?
• How did you get access to the warehouse to start creating your own private label?
• Do most blenders have a lot of this down to a science where they know what warehouses are going to yield a specific flavor profile?
• Did you at one point think, well we may have just thrown away a bunch of barrels while waiting for it to marry in a tank?
• Were you experimenting with finished whiskies at home to perfect this?
• Was there a teacher that go you to this point?
• Are people mad because they don’t have access?
• What’s your advice to people on how they can experiment at home?
• What are the elements of the bourbon flavor wheel are you looking for?
• Do you think people get turned off from grain flavors?
• What problems do you run into when you scale from a few barrels to barrels in the teens or small 20s?
• Do you think people are a little crazy that they are paying hundreds of dollars for your blend?
• What’s your plan for the next one?
• Is the best way to learn to do this is to learn how to break down single barrels?
• Do you think you are helping revive blended straight whiskey?
• Hear all of Ed’s Podcast’s at https://bourbonpursuit.com/?s=bley

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Are you looking for an in-depth story on the Beam family history and how Fred and Freddie Noe are cementing their place in it? Look no further than the 2018 Kentucky Derby Museum’s Legend Series. This episode will cover some of the fun times that were had by Booker, Fred, and Freddie and how the new release of Little Book is coming to be a yearly distribution. Fred Minnick is the host of the show as he covers many of the aspects of the family business, how they came up in the ranks, and tries to get them to divulge information time and time again.

Show Notes:

• I didn’t take any notes while I was listening. So you’ll have to listen to this one for yourself and find out how awesome it is.

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Will Longbranch slowly phase out Wild Turkey 81? Did you know that 92% of the entrants in the 2017 San Francisco World Spirit Awards won a medal? Did Buffalo Trace start aiming too high? We examine all of these topics much more in depth in this edition of the Bourbon Community Roundtable.

Show Notes:

• Who’s excited for the Matthew McConaughey bourbon?
• Was Longbranch a smart move for Wild Turkey because the Wild Turkey brand name is getting stale?
• Could this be the slow decline and phasing out of Wild Turkey 81?
• Does Wild Turkey lose something in your mind for letting Matthew put his name next to Eddie’s on the bottle?
• Henry McKenna wins the 2018 San Francisco World Spirit Awards as best bourbon. Was anyone surprised this wins out of 300+?
• Let’s talk about anti-spirit award show topics. (refer back to episode 144)
• Do you feel it’s a honey barrel and nothing that just magically showed up?
• A Buffalo Trace rep said no one is talking about the Four Grain or the OFC press release. Should we? Is this unimpressive news?
• Booker’s 30th is 16 year we are all eager to try.
• Watch all the roundtable episodes
• Thanks to Blake from bourbonr.com, Nick from BreakingBourbon.com, Kerry from Sobourbia.com, Wade from tater-talk.com, and  Brian Harra from Sippncorn.blogspot.com

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Maker’s Mark is easily the most iconic brand in bourbon. But did you know the brand would have probably ceased to exist if Bill Samuels Jr didn’t try and sell his Dad’s whiskey? Get ready to hear the untold history of how Bill Samuels Jr turned his Dad’s hobby of making whiskey from a few barrels a week into the powerhouse it is today.

Show Notes:

• So Bill let’s start from the beginning.
• Did you and your Dad butt heads a lot?
• What was your Dad’s original vision?
• What was the original investment?
• At what point was your Dad “All in”?
• How were the hard decisions made?
• Talk about the next stage for you and what you were doing with Aerospace?
• Why did you Dad want you to be “un-engineered”?
• You were a summer intern in the White House?
• What was it during that 1 year with your Dad that made you want to stay around?
• Where did you fit in this puzzle?
• You had your first publication in the Wall Street Journal, what’s next?
• At what point did you start taking over after your father began exiting?
• Talk about the growth when Rob started coming into the scene
• Do you get a feeling of accomplishment when you look at the distillery now?
• What’s your idea of still being involved and enjoying retirement?
• So 46 was your baby
• Where is this industry trending?
• Talk about strategic pricing with supply and demand
• Do you see a reason why bourbon couldn’t be $1000 a bottle?
• What niche do you think craft whiskey is solving in the market today?
• Is there a way they can have continued success?
• Listen to all of our Maker’s Mark Podcasts

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The threats of a global trade war have been looming over the past few months. Sparked by an EU attempt to lower the tariff on steel imports, they targeted American products such as peanut butter and bourbon. What sort of economic impact would a bourbon tariff have on exports to other countries? How does that trickle back into Bardstown, KY and the growing market? Does it even matter?  On this episode, we are joined by University of Louisville’s Economic Professors, Conor Lennon and Keith Teltser, to explain the intertwined global economy and the effect a tariff has from the bourbon producers to the grain suppliers.

Show Notes:

• How did you all get into bourbon?
• Explain what is a tariff?
• This all started as a retaliatory effort from the EU as an opposition to the US putting tariffs on imported steel. Can you give some more information to set the scene?
• Could this be a much ado about nothing?
• Could something actually never happen?
• Is big European growth even a target?
• Does the tariff even have an effect when you look at the abundance of the excise tax?
• When people say “Alright! More bourbon in America!” is that even a sentiment that should be encouraged? Or is that narrow-minded?
• What protection do you not like about Bourbon from a economist’s perspective?
• There isn’t a shortage of bourbon on the shelf. Are there other markets that haven’t been tapped?
• Who has the biggest dog in the fight? Brown-Forman with Jack Daniels?
• What are those other aspects we haven’t touched on that this impacts? Voters? Constituents?
• What other countries could remove their tariffs to bring more imported goods there?
• You all find the secondary market much more entertaining
• The academic work on bourbon prices over the last 3-4 years is on Conor’s site under the “Research” tab (direct link: https://tinyurl.com/yau4pn34).

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What does a bourbon that receives double gold actually mean? Are the whiskies judged blind? We learn all this and more as the Executive Director of the San Francisco World Spirits Competition, Anthony Dias Blue, joins the show to give us an inside glimpse to the bourbons that can be entered and dispels some myths if it’s a “pay to play” atmosphere.

Show Notes:

• What sets your competition apart from the rest?
• How many different categories do you have at the event?
• Are all tastings done blind?
• Are they shelf bottles (from a standard distributor) or do distillers get to choose specific bottles they send in?
• Why not Jack Daniels and other major selling brands?
• How medals are awarded, and what those medals actually mean when we see them on a bottle?
• How many judges are there and how many need to rate a bourbon as Gold for it to receive a Gold Medal?
• Most of the time when I see a sticker on a bottle saying that this bourbon was rated as Gold or Double Gold, it doesn’t have a date on the sticker. If a bourbon is awarded a medal does it have that medal forever? Is it or can it be evaluated ever again? Does the producer have to do anything to maintain that medal?
• Is the “same” product is entered over multiple years and judged independently each year?
• How much weight should we consumers put on these awards when we see them on a brand we’ve never heard of or tried?
• Why have a competition at all?
• Is it “pay to play” and your entrance fee will automatically score you a medal?
• Do you see cases of “bait and switch”? Products/Sellers submit “honey” barrels to the competition to get a higher award, and then using that award to promote an inferior product.

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Do you snuff at $100 MGP bourbon and will sourced Dickel be the next wave of NDPs? What does House Bill 400 really mean when it comes to shipping booze from Kentucky? And finally Buffalo Trace announced their new line of CYPB but who really wanted 95 proof Weller? We touch on all these topics and more on this Bourbon Community Roundtable episode.

Show Notes:

• What’s everyone drinking tonight?
• Are we getting tired of seeing $100 MGP bourbons?
• Bourbonr and BreakingBourbon have Doc52, let’s hear it
• Any good April fools out there?
• Let’s talk shipping. HB400 passed
• The new W. L. Weller Bourbon, CYPB edition (short for Craft Your Perfect Bourbon), is, according to those behind it, made from a wheat recipe, aged eight years on the top floors of the warehouses, and bottled at 95 proof. It is the bourbon which best fit into what over 100,200 bourbon drinkers voted most for over two years –  a wheated bourbon recipe aged for eight years that’s been matured on the top floor of the bourbon warehouse and bottled at somewhere between 90-99 proof. Although very limited, one batch of this new bourbon will be released each year, beginning this summer. The recommended price is around $40 for a 750ml bottle. First off, who said we wanted 95 proof weller?
• Kerry visited Bowman and Jack Rose Dining Saloon
• Thanks to Blake from bourbonr.com, Jordan from BreakingBourbon.com, Kerry from Sobourbia.com, and Brian Harra from Sippncorn.blogspot.com

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Dave Pickerell is well known in the bourbon world, he was former master distiller at Maker’s Mark and owns a consulting business, Oak View Spirits, where he has designed equipment, systems and processes for about 100 distilleries worldwide including WhistlePig, Hillrock, Corsair, and many others. This episode dives into to the distilleries themselves, the pricing behind Boss Hog,  and questions we would want to know from a master distiller like grain sourcing.

Show Notes:

• As usual, lets start from the beginning. Do you remember your introduction into whiskey or bourbon?
• Did you think chemical engineering would lead to spirits?
• First off, do you get tired of talking about your past at Makers?
• Do you think Maker’s put you on the map?
• Do people still ask you to sign Maker’s stuff?
• It seems that consulting is becoming a pretty big business because there’s the likes of you, Jim Rutledge, Nancy Fraley, Greg Metze, and the list goes on. Is there that much demand?
• Are you training new distillers?
• Do they get off track?
• Master distillers today are seen is high regards as a big marketing tool and the face of the brand relies on that one person. However, you’re wearing the badge of many distilleries at one time. Are you asked to go to places to talk about a specific brand? Do you play favorites?
• You’re still heavily involved with WhistlePig still, correct?
• Talk about the brand a bit because it’s one we typically don’t talk about on the show.
• It’s just sourced MGPi, right? So what are you doing that’s adding a bit of pizzazz to it?
• Tell me, what’s up with the pricing on Boss Hog? What sort of magic are you doing that makes a $500 bottle of whiskey?
• You are working with craft distilleries every day, what’s the biggest challenge you see facing them?
• Are you trying to produce the same product at all these places? Because when I think about it you could just have the Dave Pickerall SKUs where you say here’s your 3 options, choose one and we will put everything in that bucket
• Whats your theory on sourcing grains?
• Are chewing on them? Or after distillation?
• Discuss year to year variation of crops affect on flavors.
• Discuss how sourcing grains from different parts of the world makes a difference in the finished product.

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Can you name all the distilleries in Lawrenceburg? How is it possible that a straight bourbon is only 70 proof? Wade Woodard, blogger at tater-talk.com and witty comedic relief on Facebook forums, leads us through a series of bourbon brain teasers to see if we really know our stuff. Wade is an advocate for bourbon laws and makes sure that everyone is playing by the rules so he knows them inside and out. Listen to see if we get stumped and see if you can answer the questions before we can.

Show Notes:

• None! Because I want you to listen and try to guess the answers for yourself!

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